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Myst
Lifeless Person
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 1008
Location: Somewhere else
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 Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:55 am Post subject: |
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| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | | Myst wrote: | | That's the point? You're cutting it very fine there... Do the calculations, and you'll find that the size of a pixel on your 10" screen will be less than 10% smaller than the size of a pixel on the 15" screen. Just out of interest, have you used a 1024x600 10" screen before? |
10% is rather relative. I can say that 0.9cm is 10% smaller than 1cm. I can also say 0.9m is 10% smaller than 1m. And yes I have, and it does make quite the difference. High quality 15" LCD panel vs cheap 10" LCD panel makes quite the difference in fact. Especially in terms of contrast (what is rather important in my case). |
Ok, an in terms of pixels, 106.7 pixels per (horizontal) inch is (about) 10% smaller than 117.5. I don't see your point. Also, please note that you didn't even mention contrast when given your example...
| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | | Quote: | | Not only that, but I have a 14" 1440x900 screen (pretty much the same pixel pitch as the 10" screen), and I assure you it's very much readable. |
And do you wear glasses? 15" at 1280x1024 is still reasonable. But try 1024x600 on a 10" if your eyes aren't all that good and it becomes quite the issue. |
Yes, I have glass. But no, I do not wear glasses whilst using that particular screen (or any screen at all for that matter). For the record, I had glasses far before I used that screen, so you can't blame it for the bad eyesight either.
| LP-SolidRave wrote: | | Quote: | | You buy a HP computer and you think they have manuals telling you what the motherboard is, and what kind of ram you can put into it, or even instructions on how to open the case? |
HP will give that documentation on request. And really, any respectable manufacturer includes that type of documentation with their computers. |
And how exactly would I go about knowing to request said documentation if I didn't know it was possible? And so HP isn't a respectable manufacturer? How about ASUS? Dell?
| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | | Quote: | | What exactly do you use to benchmark the cost of something? The Eeepc and other netbooks are in a different league to the standard laptop. They're made for a different purpose. Do you say that a car is way too expensive because you can get a bicycle for a lot less? Why not? They're both vehicles. |
The Eee's are in the same price league though. And they just don't offer the same value vs cost as other options. |
And the sky is pink. I can make random (and very much debatable) statements too. I've just offered the fact that although they are similar, they have a different price structure because they have fundamentally different uses. For further comparison, how about a motorcycle against a car.
I can draw similar parallels - the motorcycle is limited compared to a car, yet, they are both "in the same price league." But you pay as much for a motorbike as you do for a low end car and you can only carry two people in it! Are motorbikes too overpriced?
| SolidRaven wrote: | | Quote: | As far as battery life goes. My laptop (which, admittedly is just over 2 years old) cannot get anywhere near that. I think the most I've managed to get it with the wifi on is about 2 and a half hours. And that's with the screen brightness on minimum, and me not actually using it. Even when it was brand new it'd max out on about 2 hours normal use.
However, I am willing to concede that battery life has gotten better, and that my laptop might not be the best for battery life. However, I'm gonna guess with your battery life of 5 hours, you don't have a graphics card in your laptop.
And, once again, out of interest, how much did you pay for your Thinkpad? |
The base model of the one I bought costed about €450 at the time. Keep in mind I did get most of the extra things (those don't improve battery life). So the total cost went up to roughly €900. Then again I bought it at the perfect timing to get the maximum amount of promotions (the entire "back to school" stuff). And I must mention it's not an R series so it's not the cheapest model either. And the prices of the thinkpads here are heavily influenced by the value of the dollar anyway.
But the cheapest thinkpad should be around €370 with the current rates. Keep in mind the dollar has recovered itself a bit now though so the prices went up again but at one point you could get a R60i for €320.
In the end though the value vs cost is several times better than anything the Eee offers on the European market. Also consider the fact that thinkpads last forever and are virtually indestructible. |
So what you're saying is, you paid a lot for your Thinkpad, bought it because it was on sale (and therefore they were actually charging more for it), comparing it to the full retail price of the Eeepc (when you can get it for cheaper) and defending it based on these figures?
I'm not going to pretend to know anything about Thinkpads (I hear they're quite popular in the US, but you hardly see them at all in Australia), but it seems like they aren't really that much cheaper than anything else. In fact, looking at the Thinkpad laptop, they're very much a higher-end product - at a level in which you have a very small performance to cost ratio. |
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LP-SolidRaven
Evil Belgian Waffle
Joined: 06 Jun 2004
Posts: 8144
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| Myst wrote: | | Ok, an in terms of pixels, 106.7 pixels per (horizontal) inch is (about) 10% smaller than 117.5. I don't see your point. Also, please note that you didn't even mention contrast when given your example... |
What do you not get? Pixels are really a relative unit that totally depends on the maximum DPI your screen supports. And a size difference in percentage is totally bogus in this case. By your theory there isn't a lot of difference between a 20" and a 15" either...
| Quote: | | Yes, I have glass. But no, I do not wear glasses whilst using that particular screen (or any screen at all for that matter). For the record, I had glasses far before I used that screen, so you can't blame it for the bad eyesight either. |
Well, then your eye sight is still fairly good.
| Quote: | | And how exactly would I go about knowing to request said documentation if I didn't know it was possible? And so HP isn't a respectable manufacturer? How about ASUS? Dell? |
HP is a mass producer. Same for ASUS and Dell. They care less about quality and remove everything that isn't considered necessary.
| Quote: | And the sky is pink. I can make random (and very much debatable) statements too. I've just offered the fact that although they are similar, they have a different price structure because they have fundamentally different uses. For further comparison, how about a motorcycle against a car.
I can draw similar parallels - the motorcycle is limited compared to a car, yet, they are both "in the same price league." But you pay as much for a motorbike as you do for a low end car and you can only carry two people in it! Are motorbikes too overpriced? |
Would you buy a car that looks nice but is rubbish in terms of performance and efficiency instead of a new car that performs well in everything knowing both cost the same price? Cause that's what you're pretty much promoting.
| Quote: | | So what you're saying is, you paid a lot for your Thinkpad, bought it because it was on sale (and therefore they were actually charging more for it), comparing it to the full retail price of the Eeepc (when you can get it for cheaper) and defending it based on these figures? |
No, I am talking about the current rates. I just looked it up. With the current rates I can buy a thinkpad R60i for €317 (no promotions at that). And a Eee 1000h actually costs €350 - €400 at the moment. So where does that leave you now?
| Quote: | | I'm not going to pretend to know anything about Thinkpads (I hear they're quite popular in the US, but you hardly see them at all in Australia), but it seems like they aren't really that much cheaper than anything else. In fact, looking at the Thinkpad laptop, they're very much a higher-end product - at a level in which you have a very small performance to cost ratio. |
I beg to differ, you might want to go and check up on the actual prices. And several other manufacturers have laptops that totally outperform the Eee and are in the same price class (or even lower).
To give an example, for the same price as an Eee 1000h you could get a Dell Inspiron 13 with a pentium dual core, 1GB DDR2 and a 160GB SATA HD. So I must ask you, why buy the Eee?
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Dilly dally, shilly shally. |
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Myst
Lifeless Person
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 1008
Location: Somewhere else
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:16 am Post subject: |
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| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | | Myst wrote: | | Ok, an in terms of pixels, 106.7 pixels per (horizontal) inch is (about) 10% smaller than 117.5. I don't see your point. Also, please note that you didn't even mention contrast when given your example... |
What do you not get? Pixels are really a relative unit that totally depends on the maximum DPI your screen supports. And a size difference in percentage is totally bogus in this case. By your theory there isn't a lot of difference between a 20" and a 15" either... |
No, it's not. The size is the exact point. Something on a screen with 100 pixels per inch is going to be exactly the same size on another screen at 100 pixels per inch, no matter what the size of either screen is. Thus, a 10% difference is saying that, say, text is going to be 10% smaller on one screen than the other. It's a perfectly valid point with your complaining about things being too small.
(Of course, that's what your point was before you started to go off talking about contrast)
| SolidRaven wrote: | | Quote: | | And how exactly would I go about knowing to request said documentation if I didn't know it was possible? And so HP isn't a respectable manufacturer? How about ASUS? Dell? |
HP is a mass producer. Same for ASUS and Dell. They care less about quality and remove everything that isn't considered necessary. |
So you're saying that the only respectable producers of PCs are the shops which put them together from components in the back of their shops?
| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | | Quote: | And the sky is pink. I can make random (and very much debatable) statements too. I've just offered the fact that although they are similar, they have a different price structure because they have fundamentally different uses. For further comparison, how about a motorcycle against a car.
I can draw similar parallels - the motorcycle is limited compared to a car, yet, they are both "in the same price league." But you pay as much for a motorbike as you do for a low end car and you can only carry two people in it! Are motorbikes too overpriced? |
Would you buy a car that looks nice but is rubbish in terms of performance and efficiency instead of a new car that performs well in everything knowing both cost the same price? Cause that's what you're pretty much promoting. |
No. If you actually read what I'm saying, a laptop and a netbook serve different purposes. A laptop is more appropriate for, say, taking it to and from work every day, where you have a docking station at each location. Or, in the case of my office, where you take your laptop around the office to have meetings, etc. A netbook, on the other hand, is more suitable for people who move around a lot carrying their computer, eg. university students or people on overseas trips. A university student will take their computer around to a bunch of lectures, he/she desires something compact. Similarly, an international businessman might be going from hotel to hotel, or have to carry all his belongings with him all the time. He too wants something small and light.
In a similar way, a motorbike is used when you're going to be travelling by yourself, and is useful for, say, parking in the city. However, it will be completely useless if you wanted to take a family of four away for a holiday.
Each has different purposes, and therefore cannot be compared at the same price point.
| SolidRaven wrote: | | Quote: | | So what you're saying is, you paid a lot for your Thinkpad, bought it because it was on sale (and therefore they were actually charging more for it), comparing it to the full retail price of the Eeepc (when you can get it for cheaper) and defending it based on these figures? |
No, I am talking about the current rates. I just looked it up. With the current rates I can buy a thinkpad R60i for €317 (no promotions at that). And a Eee 1000h actually costs €350 - €400 at the moment. So where does that leave you now? |
You can buy a Thinkpad from where for €317? (I hope you're talking locally). I'm going off Australia's prices here at the moment, but the cheapest you can get a Thinkpad for here is A$1000. That's with a Dual Core Celeron processor, 160 GB HDD, 1 gig of ram. To get a Core 2 Duo, you need to spend a minimum of A$1300, which is the R400 (again, I don't know much about Thinkpads).
Now look at the Eeepc. I can get a 701 series for A$300. I can get a 901 series for A$500. The 1000H (which apparently is hard to find nowadays) goes for about $700. This is still substantially less than the Thinkpad.
| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | | Quote: | | I'm not going to pretend to know anything about Thinkpads (I hear they're quite popular in the US, but you hardly see them at all in Australia), but it seems like they aren't really that much cheaper than anything else. In fact, looking at the Thinkpad laptop, they're very much a higher-end product - at a level in which you have a very small performance to cost ratio. |
I beg to differ, you might want to go and check up on the actual prices. And several other manufacturers have laptops that totally outperform the Eee and are in the same price class (or even lower).
To give an example, for the same price as an Eee 1000h you could get a Dell Inspiron 13 with a pentium dual core, 1GB DDR2 and a 160GB SATA HD. So I must ask you, why buy the Eee? |
I don't have an Eeepc. Nor do I wish to buy one right now. Lets have a look at the Dells though. The cheapest Dell I can buy here (which, incidentally is also the Inspiron 13) costs A$1300.
Interestingly enough, I can also buy an Inspiron Mini (which is in the same league as the Eeepc) for about the same price as an Eeepc.
But, once again, the reason you'd buy an Eeepc is if you wanted something that was light. Hell, I know a girl that's got one because she likes to carry it around in her handbag. If she needs to access the internet at uni, she can just whip it out.
It's a convenience that you can't get with a conventional laptop. |
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Jacky
3.14159265358979323846264
Joined: 01 Jan 2005
Posts: 4175
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | | Jacky wrote: | | Like I said, it differs by regions. Old P4s are hard to source here and if that's the first time I even own a computer how am I suppose to know the components inside it? |
Guess what, they have huge stocks of them in the rest of the world. |
You sure?
You sure majority of Asia have it?
| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | | Quote: | | If you are using Windows you should be able to increase the DPI. |
Guess what, the cheap LCD of the Eee's is rather limited. |
I fail to see how the LCD is "cheap".
| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | | Quote: | | Even if you do normal web surfing with the 9600M GT it still won't hit 4 hours. |
That really depends on how it's configured and what OS you're running. |
And with the same OS and configuration a business laptop can easily hit above 4 hours.
| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | | Quote: | | If you don't want to use dedicated graphic cards as example, I can use the Compaq Presario V3000, which comes with the Intel GMA X3100. With the standard 6-cell it still won't hit 4 hours, at most you can get is around 3 hours plus. |
How long did you have to think to pick that example. They don't make those anymore. Newer laptops are a lot better at power management. |
I can pick more examples: Compaq Presario CQ40, Compaq Presario CQ20, Acer Aspire 2920Z.
They all come with integrated graphics, mostly using Intel GMA. And they never hit 4 hours with the standard 6-cell.
| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | | Quote: | | You buy a HP computer and you think they have manuals telling you what the motherboard is, and what kind of ram you can put into it, or even instructions on how to open the case? |
HP will give that documentation on request. And really, any respectable manufacturer includes that type of documentation with their computers. |
That will depend on region.
In some regions they don't offer it, in some regions they offer it for a price, in some regions they offer it free.
Pretty much the same as how they offer recovery discs for their own laptops in different regions. In the US you can probably request a set from them free, in Asia you may have to pay for them or they just don't offer it at all.
| Quote: | | What exactly do you use to benchmark the cost of something? The Eeepc and other netbooks are in a different league to the standard laptop. They're made for a different purpose. Do you say that a car is way too expensive because you can get a bicycle for a lot less? Why not? They're both vehicles. |
The Eee's are in the same price league though. And they just don't offer the same value vs cost as other options.
| Quote: | As far as battery life goes. My laptop (which, admittedly is just over 2 years old) cannot get anywhere near that. I think the most I've managed to get it with the wifi on is about 2 and a half hours. And that's with the screen brightness on minimum, and me not actually using it. Even when it was brand new it'd max out on about 2 hours normal use.
However, I am willing to concede that battery life has gotten better, and that my laptop might not be the best for battery life. However, I'm gonna guess with your battery life of 5 hours, you don't have a graphics card in your laptop.
And, once again, out of interest, how much did you pay for your Thinkpad? |
The base model of the one I bought costed about €450 at the time. Keep in mind I did get most of the extra things (those don't improve battery life). So the total cost went up to roughly €900. Then again I bought it at the perfect timing to get the maximum amount of promotions (the entire "back to school" stuff). And I must mention it's not an R series so it's not the cheapest model either. And the prices of the thinkpads here are heavily influenced by the value of the dollar anyway.
But the cheapest thinkpad should be around €370 with the current rates. Keep in mind the dollar has recovered itself a bit now though so the prices went up again but at one point you could get a R60i for €320.
In the end though the value vs cost is several times better than anything the Eee offers on the European market. Also consider the fact that thinkpads last forever and are virtually indestructible.[/quote]
| Myst wrote: | I don't have an Eeepc. Nor do I wish to buy one right now. Lets have a look at the Dells though. The cheapest Dell I can buy here (which, incidentally is also the Inspiron 13) costs A$1300.
Interestingly enough, I can also buy an Inspiron Mini (which is in the same league as the Eeepc) for about the same price as an Eeepc.
But, once again, the reason you'd buy an Eeepc is if you wanted something that was light. Hell, I know a girl that's got one because she likes to carry it around in her handbag. If she needs to access the internet at uni, she can just whip it out.
It's a convenience that you can't get with a conventional laptop. |
Yes that's the way to make an example.
The Eee PC is sort of getting carried around as people's mobile phone, just that you use this thing to access the Net instead.
Mobile broadband is getting popular due to the convenience of not having to find a WiFi hotspot. You can simply place the Eee PC in your pocket or bag with a wireless modem, and when you want to find out something on the Net while you are outside you simply whip it out like your phone to use it.
Yes most phones offer this feature, but it's about the size and form-factor. With a Eee PC 1000H you can store all your files in the 160GB hard drive and you can use it as though you are using your laptop at home, but with a touchscreen phone the screen size is rather limited.
Some people can adapt to using just their phone but for some who got a little bit of extra money they would want to get a Eee PC to bring along with.
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| ClickFanatic wrote: | Your nonsense make my forum visits rather brief, Jacky. It's like:
"Hey look, a reply notification!"
*click* *click*
*reading garbage*
"Oh it was Jacky again..."
*close* |
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LP-SolidRaven
Evil Belgian Waffle
Joined: 06 Jun 2004
Posts: 8144
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| Myst wrote: | No, it's not. The size is the exact point. Something on a screen with 100 pixels per inch is going to be exactly the same size on another screen at 100 pixels per inch, no matter what the size of either screen is. Thus, a 10% difference is saying that, say, text is going to be 10% smaller on one screen than the other. It's a perfectly valid point with your complaining about things being too small.
(Of course, that's what your point was before you started to go off talking about contrast) |
The difference being that in the case of the bigger screen the DPI can actually be lower for the same resolution. Additionally as the DPI increases it becomes harder to read on a monitor if your eyes aren't all that good anymore. Especially if it has a bad contrast.
| Quote: | | So you're saying that the only respectable producers of PCs are the shops which put them together from components in the back of their shops? |
Actually quite a few of the smaller manufacturers include all the documentation.
| Quote: | No. If you actually read what I'm saying, a laptop and a netbook serve different purposes. A laptop is more appropriate for, say, taking it to and from work every day, where you have a docking station at each location. Or, in the case of my office, where you take your laptop around the office to have meetings, etc. A netbook, on the other hand, is more suitable for people who move around a lot carrying their computer, eg. university students or people on overseas trips. A university student will take their computer around to a bunch of lectures, he/she desires something compact. Similarly, an international businessman might be going from hotel to hotel, or have to carry all his belongings with him all the time. He too wants something small and light.
In a similar way, a motorbike is used when you're going to be travelling by yourself, and is useful for, say, parking in the city. However, it will be completely useless if you wanted to take a family of four away for a holiday. |
A netbook is an undersized overpriced laptop.
| Quote: | | Each has different purposes, and therefore cannot be compared at the same price point. |
Oh yes they can actually, if you look at the parts you see that it's seriously overpriced. If I sell car A with a bad engine for €2500 and then put the same bad engine in another car and sell it for €5000 you'll say it's a rip off price.
| Quote: | You can buy a Thinkpad from where for €317? (I hope you're talking locally). I'm going off Australia's prices here at the moment, but the cheapest you can get a Thinkpad for here is A$1000. That's with a Dual Core Celeron processor, 160 GB HDD, 1 gig of ram. To get a Core 2 Duo, you need to spend a minimum of A$1300, which is the R400 (again, I don't know much about Thinkpads).
Now look at the Eeepc. I can get a 701 series for A$300. I can get a 901 series for A$500. The 1000H (which apparently is hard to find nowadays) goes for about $700. This is still substantially less than the Thinkpad. |
Look that's the main reason that the Eee's suck. ASUS can't stick to logical pricing patterns. Basically all ASUS did was remove the dollar sign do the price *1.4 and then put a euro sign in front of it.
| Quote: | I don't have an Eeepc. Nor do I wish to buy one right now. Lets have a look at the Dells though. The cheapest Dell I can buy here (which, incidentally is also the Inspiron 13) costs A$1300.
Interestingly enough, I can also buy an Inspiron Mini (which is in the same league as the Eeepc) for about the same price as an Eeepc. |
Actually the Inspiron 13 costs as much as the Eee 1000h...
| Quote: | But, once again, the reason you'd buy an Eeepc is if you wanted something that was light. Hell, I know a girl that's got one because she likes to carry it around in her handbag. If she needs to access the internet at uni, she can just whip it out.
It's a convenience that you can't get with a conventional laptop. |
Wow, you'll need a big handbag to carry that around. Talk about bad habits and carrying around a lot on a bad way...
| Jacky wrote: | You sure?
You sure majority of Asia have it? |
Actually I'm quite sure. Production continued when the production of the dual cores was started. Those never really got used.
| Quote: | | I fail to see how the LCD is "cheap". |
Face it, the price you pay vs the quality of the LCD panel is daylight robbery.
| Quote: | | And with the same OS and configuration a business laptop can easily hit above 4 hours. |
You know what the problem is with a lot of these people? They fail to see that some manufacturers sell business models at the same price as home models or even cheaper actually.
| Quote: | I can pick more examples: Compaq Presario CQ40, Compaq Presario CQ20, Acer Aspire 2920Z.
They all come with integrated graphics, mostly using Intel GMA. And they never hit 4 hours with the standard 6-cell. |
Well has intel ever been known for making products that are power efficient?
| Quote: | That will depend on region.
In some regions they don't offer it, in some regions they offer it for a price, in some regions they offer it free.
Pretty much the same as how they offer recovery discs for their own laptops in different regions. In the US you can probably request a set from them free, in Asia you may have to pay for them or they just don't offer it at all. |
And that's another reason why you're better of buying a real laptop. The support is a thousand times better.
| Quote: | Yes that's the way to make an example.
The Eee PC is sort of getting carried around as people's mobile phone, just that you use this thing to access the Net instead.
Mobile broadband is getting popular due to the convenience of not having to find a WiFi hotspot. You can simply place the Eee PC in your pocket or bag with a wireless modem, and when you want to find out something on the Net while you are outside you simply whip it out like your phone to use it. |
Guess what, people do that all the time with their regular laptop...
| Quote: | Yes most phones offer this feature, but it's about the size and form-factor. With a Eee PC 1000H you can store all your files in the 160GB hard drive and you can use it as though you are using your laptop at home, but with a touchscreen phone the screen size is rather limited.
Some people can adapt to using just their phone but for some who got a little bit of extra money they would want to get a Eee PC to bring along with. |
Most people don't realize that the phone's built in browser is terrible in a lot of cases. But fact is, I'd rather buy an iPhone than get an Eee. (And that comes from a person that thinks apple is several times worse than microsoft).
You do realize that the 1000h is terribly overpriced for what it offers? It's the most expensive piece of junk that is considered a netbook to ever come out of ASUS.
The "netbooks" are just a hype. Phones are great to browse the internet. And real laptops can at least run demanding applications when needed. On the other hand the fail-version laptops (also known as netbooks) can't really run anything resource demanding and is overpriced.
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Dilly dally, shilly shally. |
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Myst
Lifeless Person
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 1008
Location: Somewhere else
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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Here we go again... I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree here, because you're disagreeing with my fundamental point:
Small laptops (ie netbooks) have a purpose distinct from more conventional-sized laptops because they are easier to carry around.
You seem to think that this isn't so - despite the fact that much of the world (and in particular this forum) disagrees with you.
Thus, I'm not going to change your mind about this, and therefore this argument is going to go in circles forever.
Nevertheless, I still feel the need to respond to a few of your comments:
| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | | The difference being that in the case of the bigger screen the DPI can actually be lower for the same resolution. Additionally as the DPI increases it becomes harder to read on a monitor if your eyes aren't all that good anymore. Especially if it has a bad contrast. |
You do realise that pixels per inch is directly proportional to DPI? And thus you're not really making a point. Let me reword my above statement for you:
The DPI on the your 1280x1024 on a 15" screen is only 10% larger than the DPI on the 1024x600 Eeepc screen.
| LP-SolidRave wrote: | | Actually quite a few of the smaller manufacturers include all the documentation. |
Such as?
| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | | Quote: | No. If you actually read what I'm saying, a laptop and a netbook serve different purposes. A laptop is more appropriate for, say, taking it to and from work every day, where you have a docking station at each location. Or, in the case of my office, where you take your laptop around the office to have meetings, etc. A netbook, on the other hand, is more suitable for people who move around a lot carrying their computer, eg. university students or people on overseas trips. A university student will take their computer around to a bunch of lectures, he/she desires something compact. Similarly, an international businessman might be going from hotel to hotel, or have to carry all his belongings with him all the time. He too wants something small and light.
In a similar way, a motorbike is used when you're going to be travelling by yourself, and is useful for, say, parking in the city. However, it will be completely useless if you wanted to take a family of four away for a holiday. |
A netbook is an undersized overpriced laptop. |
So you think that it makes more sense to take a large laptop to uni when you're only taking notes in class, and have to lug it around everywhere. I know I'd rather take a 800 gram Eeepc around than a 2.5 kg laptop...
| Quote: | | Oh yes they can actually, if you look at the parts you see that it's seriously overpriced. If I sell car A with a bad engine for €2500 and then put the same bad engine in another car and sell it for €5000 you'll say it's a rip off price. |
I wouldn't if that body of the car is of a much better quality.... or has added features not available on the first car.
| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | | Quote: | You can buy a Thinkpad from where for €317? (I hope you're talking locally). I'm going off Australia's prices here at the moment, but the cheapest you can get a Thinkpad for here is A$1000. That's with a Dual Core Celeron processor, 160 GB HDD, 1 gig of ram. To get a Core 2 Duo, you need to spend a minimum of A$1300, which is the R400 (again, I don't know much about Thinkpads).
Now look at the Eeepc. I can get a 701 series for A$300. I can get a 901 series for A$500. The 1000H (which apparently is hard to find nowadays) goes for about $700. This is still substantially less than the Thinkpad. |
Look that's the main reason that the Eee's suck. ASUS can't stick to logical pricing patterns. Basically all ASUS did was remove the dollar sign do the price *1.4 and then put a euro sign in front of it. |
That is a logical pricing structure if you think about it  Everything is scaled appropriately. However, you're not responding to my point at all...
| Quote: | | Actually the Inspiron 13 costs as much as the Eee 1000h... |
It definitely doesn't here I'd just checked the Dell website at that point, and the cheapest Dell there was $1300. Without any upgrades. I know that I can walk into a shop and get a 1000H for $800. This is not the same price. 
| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | | Quote: | But, once again, the reason you'd buy an Eeepc is if you wanted something that was light. Hell, I know a girl that's got one because she likes to carry it around in her handbag. If she needs to access the internet at uni, she can just whip it out.
It's a convenience that you can't get with a conventional laptop. |
Wow, you'll need a big handbag to carry that around. Talk about bad habits and carrying around a lot on a bad way... |
It's not any bigger than what she was using previously And yeah, great argument
| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | | Quote: | | I fail to see how the LCD is "cheap". |
Face it, the price you pay vs the quality of the LCD panel is daylight robbery. |
It's a laptop screen. They all suck
| LP-SolidRaven wrote: |
Well has intel ever been known for making products that are power efficient? |
It's a big push now. That's why the Core 2 Duo range came in. Hell, it's why they moved to Multiple cores in the first place... And what are you comparing to? AMD?
| LP-SolidRaven wrote: |
And that's another reason why you're better of buying a real laptop. The support is a thousand times better. |
I'm pretty sure it's all handled by the same people.
| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | | Guess what, people do that all the time with their regular laptop... |
Yeah, but it's more convenient to do it with a smaller laptop because you don't have to carry all that extra weight around.
| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | | Most people don't realize that the phone's built in browser is terrible in a lot of cases. But fact is, I'd rather buy an iPhone than get an Eee. (And that comes from a person that thinks apple is several times worse than microsoft). |
I have an iPhone. Sure, the browser is ok, pretty good for a small-resolution, tiny screen. Interface is pretty good too. However, it's nothing compared to having a real keyboard, and being able to see the whole webpage at once. There's no way I'd do anything important on it. Form entry is almost completely out of the question. Why? Because it's too hard to try to type.
| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | | You do realize that the 1000h is terribly overpriced for what it offers? It's the most expensive piece of junk that is considered a netbook to ever come out of ASUS. |
Evidence please
| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | | The "netbooks" are just a hype. Phones are great to browse the internet. And real laptops can at least run demanding applications when needed. On the other hand the fail-version laptops (also known as netbooks) can't really run anything resource demanding and is overpriced. |
The thing is, 90% of people never need to run anything resource-intensive. I think you said something like that at the start of the thread...
Anyhow, just to re-iterate my point. When buying a small laptop, you're paying for the size of the thing. It's like people who buy sleek new phone. Even if it's internally identical to another phone - they pay that little bit more so that it's not so bulky. The same thing applies here. |
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krt
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Joined: 11 Jan 2005
Posts: 4995
Location: Down Under
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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I'd join the argument but this is going nowhere.
| SolidRaven wrote: | | Guess what, people do that all the time with their regular laptop... |
Whip a regular laptop out of their pocket? Care to share the secret?
That's enough.
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LP-SolidRaven
Evil Belgian Waffle
Joined: 06 Jun 2004
Posts: 8144
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 4:18 am Post subject: |
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| krt wrote: | I'd join the argument but this is going nowhere.
| SolidRaven wrote: | | Guess what, people do that all the time with their regular laptop... |
Whip a regular laptop out of their pocket? Care to share the secret?
That's enough. |
You won't be able to fit a Eee in your pocket either.
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LP-SolidRaven
Evil Belgian Waffle
Joined: 06 Jun 2004
Posts: 8144
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 4:37 am Post subject: |
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| Myst wrote: | Here we go again... I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree here, because you're disagreeing with my fundamental point:
Small laptops (ie netbooks) have a purpose distinct from more conventional-sized laptops because they are easier to carry around.
You seem to think that this isn't so - despite the fact that much of the world (and in particular this forum) disagrees with you.
Thus, I'm not going to change your mind about this, and therefore this argument is going to go in circles forever. |
It's a pure hype "OMG WE NEED SMALL LAPTOPS THAT ARE OVERPRICED". If they want to sell a laptop with bad specifications they should change the price accordingly.
| Quote: | You do realise that pixels per inch is directly proportional to DPI? And thus you're not really making a point. Let me reword my above statement for you:
The DPI on the your 1280x1024 on a 15" screen is only 10% larger than the DPI on the 1024x600 Eeepc screen. |
I'm not sure if you got it but DPI is pixel per inch unless if the manufacturer decides to abuse the definition (what is frowned up on) and says 3 dots / pixel. And basically never thought about how 10% might be a large difference between not being able to read it and being able to read it?
Q-Force to give an example.
| Quote: | | So you think that it makes more sense to take a large laptop to uni when you're only taking notes in class, and have to lug it around everywhere. I know I'd rather take a 800 gram Eeepc around than a 2.5 kg laptop... |
Have fun running anything more than a basic text editor on it. If you ever need to use it for something that requires more processing power you'll have to bring in a real laptop since a lot of universities and colleges simply expect students to have their own laptops these days.
| Quote: | | I wouldn't if that body of the car is of a much better quality.... or has added features not available on the first car. |
But in this case it doesn't. The Eee has no additional features except being lighter.
| Quote: | | That is a logical pricing structure if you think about it Everything is scaled appropriately. However, you're not responding to my point at all... |
There is no logical pricing structure. Please tell me why you pay as much for a Eee 1000h here as you'd pay for a laptop with 4gb ram and a C2D in it here?
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Actually the Inspiron 13 costs as much as the Eee 1000h... |
It definitely doesn't here I'd just checked the Dell website at that point, and the cheapest Dell there was $1300. Without any upgrades. I know that I can walk into a shop and get a 1000H for $800. This is not the same price. |
Go and look on the dell website. Or Dell's pricing in Australia sucks.
| Quote: | | It's not any bigger than what she was using previously And yeah, great argument |
Actually my point is valid though, you'll still need a backpack to carry it around.
| Quote: | | It's a laptop screen. They all suck |
Not true actually, quite a few laptops come with high quality LCD panels.
| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | | It's a big push now. That's why the Core 2 Duo range came in. Hell, it's why they moved to Multiple cores in the first place... And what are you comparing to? AMD? |
In general Intel's products haven't been really power efficient. That somewhat changed in terms of CPU design but in other aspects they still have to catch up with the market. a NVidia or ATI integrated graphics chip will use less power than an Intel one.
| Quote: | | I'm pretty sure it's all handled by the same people. |
It's not though. I'd rather call the Dell support line than the ASUS support line for obvious reasons.
| Quote: | | Yeah, but it's more convenient to do it with a smaller laptop because you don't have to carry all that extra weight around. |
Not that much extra considering that you have several times more things available. In fact instead of taking books with me I simply take my laptop with me instead. Saves me a lot of weight. Additionally I can harass people who are using their phone and left their bluetooth on
| Quote: | | I have an iPhone. Sure, the browser is ok, pretty good for a small-resolution, tiny screen. Interface is pretty good too. However, it's nothing compared to having a real keyboard, and being able to see the whole webpage at once. There's no way I'd do anything important on it. Form entry is almost completely out of the question. Why? Because it's too hard to try to type. |
And you are willing to type on the miniature keyboard of an Eee?
| Quote: | | Evidence please |
The fact that it costs €600 - €700 euro over here.
| Quote: | | The thing is, 90% of people never need to run anything resource-intensive. I think you said something like that at the start of the thread... |
If you want to make such a laptop you should make the price according to what you offer. And don't raise it like they're doing now.
| Quote: | | Anyhow, just to re-iterate my point. When buying a small laptop, you're paying for the size of the thing. It's like people who buy sleek new phone. Even if it's internally identical to another phone - they pay that little bit more so that it's not so bulky. The same thing applies here. |
You know what the increased weight of a real laptop is for, right?
The weight is the battery and the bigger screen. Additionally they didn't use cheap plastics that look so damned ugly.
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Myst
Lifeless Person
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 1008
Location: Somewhere else
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:16 am Post subject: |
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Cutting out some of your stuff now. Basically because it all sounds the same
| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | | I'm not sure if you got it but DPI is pixel per inch unless if the manufacturer decides to abuse the definition (what is frowned up on) and says 3 dots / pixel. And basically never thought about how 10% might be a large difference between not being able to read it and being able to read it? |
My point from the start was that it was an awfully brave call to say at that 10% drop it suddenly goes from 'readable' to 'unreadable.'
| LP-SolidRaven wrote: |
Q-Force to give an example. |
Never heard of them. Got another for me? Or is there only one reputable computer seller out there?
| Quote: | | Have fun running anything more than a basic text editor on it. If you ever need to use it for something that requires more processing power you'll have to bring in a real laptop since a lot of universities and colleges simply expect students to have their own laptops these days. |
Um... lets see. I don't game when I go to uni. What else do I need? Even studying engineering, I wouldn't be able to run the big programs on it because I don't have licenses.
At this point, I should also add that I assume that the netbook isn't your primary PC.
| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | | But in this case it doesn't. The Eee has no additional features except being lighter. |
And smaller. And thus easier to carry around. ie, it provides something that a regular laptop cannot.
| Quote: | | There is no logical pricing structure. Please tell me why you pay as much for a Eee 1000h here as you'd pay for a laptop with 4gb ram and a C2D in it here? |
*shrugs* I'm not there. Maybe ASUS just hate you people
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Actually the Inspiron 13 costs as much as the Eee 1000h... |
It definitely doesn't here I'd just checked the Dell website at that point, and the cheapest Dell there was $1300. Without any upgrades. I know that I can walk into a shop and get a 1000H for $800. This is not the same price. |
Go and look on the dell website. Or Dell's pricing in Australia sucks.[/quote]
.... I just told you I checked the Dell website (interestingly enough, the cheapest Inspiron 13 is now $1399).
However, having another look, the 15.1" Dell laptop is actually cheaper. Tell you why? Because it's larger and thus harder to carry around 
| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | | Quote: | | It's not any bigger than what she was using previously And yeah, great argument |
Actually my point is valid though, you'll still need a backpack to carry it around. |
But you're wrong, because she carries it around in her handbag Besides, you'd need a smaller bag compared to the original laptop, and you won't be breaking your back doing it.
| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | | In general Intel's products haven't been really power efficient. That somewhat changed in terms of CPU design but in other aspects they still have to catch up with the market. a NVidia or ATI integrated graphics chip will use less power than an Intel one. |
But they don't make CPUs
| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | | Quote: | | I'm pretty sure it's all handled by the same people. |
It's not though. I'd rather call the Dell support line than the ASUS support line for obvious reasons. |
Unfortunately for you, I've had great experience with ASUS support. As in, overseas, laptop broken, sent it in, got it back within 3 days of posting it (it had to go from one side of Canada to the other and back again), no postage charges or anything.
| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | | Not that much extra considering that you have several times more things available. In fact instead of taking books with me I simply take my laptop with me instead. Saves me a lot of weight. Additionally I can harass people who are using their phone and left their bluetooth on |
Last time I checked, you could put a textbook on any sized laptop. I don't think a textbook is larger than 20 gigs And yeah, although cool, not a valid point
| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | | And you are willing to type on the miniature keyboard of an Eee? |
It's miles better than the tactile-feedback-lacking touchscreen of the iPhone.
| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | | Quote: | | Evidence please |
The fact that it costs €600 - €700 euro over here. |
That shows that it's (fairly) expensive in some parts of the world - not that it's junk
| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | You know what the increased weight of a real laptop is for, right?
The weight is the battery and the bigger screen. Additionally they didn't use cheap plastics that look so damned ugly. |
Unfortunately, they need the larger battery to compensate for the larger screen. You don't lose any battery-life by going smaller. |
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LP-SolidRaven
Evil Belgian Waffle
Joined: 06 Jun 2004
Posts: 8144
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 8:10 am Post subject: |
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| Myst wrote: | | Cutting out some of your stuff now. Basically because it all sounds the same |
Your responses are somewhat identical in several ways...
| Quote: | | My point from the start was that it was an awfully brave call to say at that 10% drop it suddenly goes from 'readable' to 'unreadable.' |
It does actually matter quite a bit
| Quote: | | Never heard of them. Got another for me? Or is there only one reputable computer seller out there? |
| Quote: | Um... lets see. I don't game when I go to uni. What else do I need? Even studying engineering, I wouldn't be able to run the big programs on it because I don't have licenses.
At this point, I should also add that I assume that the netbook isn't your primary PC. |
Actually, engineering software often has educational licenses available. Cause companies know if a student learns to work with their software that they might keep using it later on.
| Quote: | | And smaller. And thus easier to carry around. ie, it provides something that a regular laptop cannot. |
That's one thing vs. many.
| Quote: | *shrugs* I'm not there. Maybe ASUS just hate you people
.... I just told you I checked the Dell website (interestingly enough, the cheapest Inspiron 13 is now $1399).
However, having another look, the 15.1" Dell laptop is actually cheaper. Tell you why? Because it's larger and thus harder to carry around |
ASUS seems to hate Europe just like Dell seems to hate Australia.
[IMG]http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/9296/dellpricingxs1.th.jpg[/IMG]
^Cheaper than the Eee. Also looking at the prices in dollar for this one cause else any laptop would beat the 1000h...
| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | | But you're wrong, because she carries it around in her handbag Besides, you'd need a smaller bag compared to the original laptop, and you won't be breaking your back doing it. |
That means you'll be carrying in excess of 2kg in your handbag if you already put a laptop in there you can expect to find a lot more crap in there.
| Quote: | | But they don't make CPUs |
Actually ATI is now part of AMD so that's not really right. And NVidia has used GPUs as CPU actually.
| Quote: | | Unfortunately for you, I've had great experience with ASUS support. As in, overseas, laptop broken, sent it in, got it back within 3 days of posting it (it had to go from one side of Canada to the other and back again), no postage charges or anything. |
I've seen cases where Dell replaced the laptop the same day
| Quote: | | Last time I checked, you could put a textbook on any sized laptop. I don't think a textbook is larger than 20 gigs And yeah, although cool, not a valid point |
Well, you'll have trouble displaying it at 100% on a 10" screen 
| Quote: | | It's miles better than the tactile-feedback-lacking touchscreen of the iPhone. |
Might be true, that's why we have palm treos
| Quote: | | That shows that it's (fairly) expensive in some parts of the world - not that it's junk |
Compared to what you can buy for that it's crap
| Quote: | | Unfortunately, they need the larger battery to compensate for the larger screen. You don't lose any battery-life by going smaller. |
No, you only lose screen size and performance in general cause they fit less powerful hardware in there. Your Eee could probably run for over a half day on the battery of my Thinkpad
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Xtreme $niper
Lifeless Person
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Posts: 1870
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:42 am Post subject: |
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lol I agree with krt. I'd join as well but this argument really is going nowhere.
Take it to an instant messenger chat, guys. haha. You both obviously have had different experiences with different companies, and your preferences for electronics differ. There is nothing wrong with an Eee machine if you just want a small and basic laptop. You can say it's overpriced compared to normal sized laptops all you want, but fact of the matter is, they are still cheaper and more portable. Some people just simply prefer that, and if they are willing to pay for it then good on them.
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LP-SolidRaven
Evil Belgian Waffle
Joined: 06 Jun 2004
Posts: 8144
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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They are overpriced compared to oversized laptops. People should stop thinking that the prices in the US and Canada count for the rest of the world.
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Myst
Lifeless Person
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 1008
Location: Somewhere else
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:01 am Post subject: |
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| Xtreme $niper wrote: | | Take it to an instant messenger chat, guys. haha. You both obviously have had different experiences with different companies, and your preferences for electronics differ. There is nothing wrong with an Eee machine if you just want a small and basic laptop. You can say it's overpriced compared to normal sized laptops all you want, but fact of the matter is, they are still cheaper and more portable. Some people just simply prefer that, and if they are willing to pay for it then good on them. |
Aww.. but here people are meant to be backing me up. Apparently people are bored of this convo.
Anyhow, I'm bored of it too, so I'm gonna respond to stuff that has very little to do with the actual Eeepc product.
| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | | It does actually matter quite a bit |
Ok If you say so.
| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | | Actually, engineering software often has educational licenses available. Cause companies know if a student learns to work with their software that they might keep using it later on. |
I know, but I have a desktop to handle those kinds of things, and there are labs at uni if I need it there. Anyhow, the big, big ones aren't available on educational licenses anyway (think ANSYS - the proper version).
| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | | That's one thing vs. many. |
I see it as power vs portability. What else you got?
| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | | That means you'll be carrying in excess of 2kg in your handbag if you already put a laptop in there you can expect to find a lot more crap in there. |
Doesn't change the fact that it's true.
| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | | I've seen cases where Dell replaced the laptop the same day |
Yeah, but you actually have to take it into the shop This is talking overnight delivery over 3000 km away. And they pay for the delivery both ways.
| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | | Well, you'll have trouble displaying it at 100% on a 10" screen Wink |
At 1024 wide? I'd think that wouldn't be a problem given that we were all using 800x600 once
| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | | Might be true, that's why we have palm treos |
But OMG it's APPLE!!!!!!!1!!!!1!!!1!1111!!!
| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | | No, you only lose screen size and performance in general cause they fit less powerful hardware in there. Your Eee could probably run for over a half day on the battery of my Thinkpad |
True, but then it'd be heavy again |
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LP-SolidRaven
Evil Belgian Waffle
Joined: 06 Jun 2004
Posts: 8144
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Myst wrote: | Aww.. but here people are meant to be backing me up. Apparently people are bored of this convo.
Anyhow, I'm bored of it too, so I'm gonna respond to stuff that has very little to do with the actual Eeepc product. |
You're not the only one that got bored of it.
| Quote: | | I know, but I have a desktop to handle those kinds of things, and there are labs at uni if I need it there. Anyhow, the big, big ones aren't available on educational licenses anyway (think ANSYS - the proper version). |
Actually, a lot of universities and colleges aren't replacing their desktop computers in the labs any more so you need a laptop. And CATIA, AutoCAD, etc. do have student versions though. Also sometimes it's not announced on their website but you might try sending an email.
| Quote: | | I see it as power vs portability. What else you got? |
Usability and time it lasts in general (you won't have to buy a new one too soon).
| Quote: | | Doesn't change the fact that it's true. |
You should always carry anything around or more than 1kg in a backpack anyway. So the Eee pretty much qualifies in that aspect.
| Quote: | | Yeah, but you actually have to take it into the shop This is talking overnight delivery over 3000 km away. And they pay for the delivery both ways. |
Actually, all he had to do was find a dell certified dealer.
| Quote: | | At 1024 wide? I'd think that wouldn't be a problem given that we were all using 800x600 once |
Actually, consider the 10" or smaller screen
| Quote: | But OMG it's APPLE!!!!!!!1!!!!1!!!1!1111!!!
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Palm Treo owns the iPhone.
| Quote: | | True, but then it'd be heavy again |
Muscle training
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