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Grimoire
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Joined: 04 Nov 2005
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 Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:56 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | What a laugh. These two sentences prove you know nothing about science. First, there are many thousands of issues in science that scientists themselves cannot agree on. Second, scientists are among the most closed mined people around. Try convincing a scientist on the merits of a new theory and see how far you will get. Plate Tectonics is a great case in point. Its inventor was laughed at and ridiculed and even lost his university teaching post as a result. So much for the open minds of scientists. They hold to their 'religion' of science just as strongly as any religionist. |
Except, plate tectonics is now accepted, so they do change their minds...
Please, at least have a little consistency to your argument, otherwise you just sound like a bible bashing twat.
Scientists require good reasons to change their minds an accept new theories, and they require that the theory they currently subscribe to be proven false, but the general opinion does eventually shift to the theory with the most solid evidence behind it.
That's how we've arrived at the wonderful technological marvel of a long lived and knowledge filled modern world we live in.
IT wasn't by sitting around in church going 'uhh god just did it and stuff, lets have a pray and god will help us - hang on, that guy over there says there is no god, lets burn him to death'
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linuxdoctor
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Joined: 23 Apr 2005
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Location: Ottawa, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:08 am Post subject: |
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| Grimoire wrote: |
Except, plate tectonics is now accepted, so they do change their minds... |
Not universally ... there are still scientists out there who don't accept it. Even Galileo could not accept the Keplerian system.
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Please, at least have a little consistency to your argument, otherwise you just sound like a bible bashing twat. |
I made no argument, just an observation that you hold to what you believe is science just as strongly as people their religions. You cannot prove science or even know what it is yet you believe in it. Science is your god and your religion and woe to anybody who dares challenge your belief system. It's pretty funny really.
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Scientists require good reasons to change their minds an accept new theories, and they require that the theory they currently subscribe to be proven false, but the general opinion does eventually shift to the theory with the most solid evidence behind it. |
Sometimes that's true and sometimes its not. Sometimes it's just a matter of what is fashionable.
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That's how we've arrived at the wonderful technological marvel of a long lived and knowledge filled modern world we live in. |
Not all the world is long lived and I don't see that people in general are any more knowledgeable than in the past.
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IT wasn't by sitting around in church going 'uhh god just did it and stuff, lets have a pray and god will help us - hang on, that guy over there says there is no god, lets burn him to death' |
It seems you know just as little about religion as you do science. You are arguing in ignorance.
And please, we are speaking about God, not some 'god' so please have the courtesy to spell it correctly so that we all know what we're talking about.
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Grimoire
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Joined: 04 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:42 am Post subject: |
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Religion is ignorance.
Religion is the default stand-in for knowledge.
That's why all religions were created in the ancient past, before people had any real knowledge.
'We don't know how anything happened or how anything works, so let's just attribute it all to some type of unknown magical being'.
Once knowledge is gained, religion dies, and that's exactly what we've been seeing (in most of Western Europe at least)
What remains is clinging to the underside of rocks, and that's only due to the sheer stubborn nature of tradition, but that'll fade eventually.
And no, I refuse to credit the notion of god with a capital letter, I have no interest in which arbitrary version of that vague fantasy figure you're referring to, it's all the same to me.
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linuxdoctor
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Joined: 23 Apr 2005
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Location: Ottawa, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:20 am Post subject: |
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| Grimoire wrote: | Religion is ignorance.
Religion is the default stand-in for knowledge.
That's why all religions were created in the ancient past, before people had any real knowledge. |
And that, sir, is prejudice. I understand both science and religion and accept both as valid expressions of man's quest for knowledge. Not all religion is valid but neither is all science. One cannot simply dismiss all religion just because some, or even most, of them is nonsense. Much of science is nonsense too (like Economics) yet nobody is dismissing all of it out of hand as you do with religion. Science has led to such horrific social theories like Social Darwinism where the rich are deemed superior because of their wealth. Science is not the wonderful panscea many Utopian minded people seem to think it is.
I have no respect for the false religions like Protestantism and Islam but some religions like Buddhism has much merit and I have a great respect for Buddhists. Perhaps you should endevour to study religion so that when (or if) you decide to dismiss it you will be doing so from the standpoint of knowledge and not ignorance as you are now.
Yet you accept science without really knowing about it either. You look about the world and see what you call 'marvelous' technology and attribute it all to science. How quaint. The fact is, science produced not one single technological wonder. Science has no power to do these things, but man has, or more correctly homo geniensis can do these things. Simple homo sapiens can't even rub two sticks together to make fire without being shown first.
In any case, your blind rejection of religion and your equally blind acceptance of science is simply another manifestion of man's continuing history of willful ignorance that has been the bane of man from the beginning.
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Grimoire
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:51 am Post subject: |
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| linuxdoctor wrote: |
And that, sir, is prejudice. I understand both science and religion and accept both as valid expressions of man's quest for knowledge. Not all religion is valid but neither is all science. One cannot simply dismiss all religion just because some, or even most, of them is nonsense. Much of science is nonsense too (like Economics) yet nobody is dismissing all of it out of hand as you do with religion. Science has led to such horrific social theories like Social Darwinism where the rich are deemed superior because of their wealth. |
This is remarkable, all you talk is absolute bollocks. As I said before, you seem to have a level of naivety about the world that I'd expect from a 12 year old.
The rich have always been deemed superior since the ancient past, there have always been the privileged and underprivileged and it has nothing to do with science.
The exact opposite is the case - science is the great equaliser. Look at the situation of the common man in a modern Western country today as opposed to at any other point in history.
Religions, on the other hand, were and are the great oppressors of the masses.
| Quote: | | I have no respect for the false religions like Protestantism and Islam but some religions like Buddhism has much merit and I have a great respect for Buddhists. Perhaps you should endevour to study religion so that when (or if) you decide to dismiss it you will be doing so from the standpoint of knowledge and not ignorance as you are now. |
Buddhism is not really a religion, so let's not equivocate it with the likes of christianity, it's just an alternate way of living your life. They make a few wild claims, such as reincarnation, but generally it's pretty sensible and dignified.
| Quote: | | Yet you accept science without really knowing about it either. You look about the world and see what you call 'marvelous' technology and attribute it all to science. How quaint. The fact is, science produced not one single technological wonder. Science has no power to do these things, but man has, or more correctly homo geniensis can do these things. Simple homo sapiens can't even rub two sticks together to make fire without being shown first. |
More rabid babbling...
Science is an intellectual tool developed and used by humans, and a very successful one, so don't start nitpicking these silly little points. The fact that we aren't all trained in every scientific discipline is caused by there being too much knowledge these days and not enough time in a human lifespan, so we have to break it down and each take a small share.
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linuxdoctor
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Joined: 23 Apr 2005
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Location: Ottawa, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| Grimoire wrote: | | linuxdoctor wrote: |
And that, sir, is prejudice. Science has led to such horrific social theories like Social Darwinism where the rich are deemed superior because of their wealth. |
This is remarkable, all you talk is absolute bollocks. ...
The rich have always been deemed superior since the ancient past, there have always been the privileged and underprivileged and it has nothing to do with science. |
Once again you show your ignorance. Yes, the rich have always seemed better than the great masses, but Social Darwinism attempted to construct a whole social science through the misapplication of Darwin's theory of Natural Selection. They tried to use science to prove that the rich were superior. According to the theory, the poor and the rich were genetically predisposed to be one or the other and that charity and other social services designed to help the poor was futile and a waste of money. In fact, the rich were better off (pun intended) spending their money making themselves richer.
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The exact opposite is the case - science is the great equaliser. Look at the situation of the common man in a modern Western country today as opposed to at any other point in history. |
You obviously do not work in any scientific field, do you? In science, as in any other endevour, it is organised into elites. There is nothing egalitarian about science or its pursuit.
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Religions, on the other hand, were and are the great oppressors of the masses. |
More ignorance. The history of Christianity, if anything, is quite the opposite. Its origins is among the peasantry and the vast majority of Popes and Princes of the Church all had humble origins. If anything, the Church has stood as a bulwark against oppression by the High and Mighty against the poor.
| Quote: | | Buddhism is not really a religion, so let's not equivocate it with the likes of christianity, it's just an alternate way of living your life. They make a few wild claims, such as reincarnation, but generally it's pretty sensible and dignified. |
If something doesn't fit with your particular prejudice you just change the rules of game, eh? Of course Buddhism is a religion. Sure it's a way of life, that is what all religions are. Once again you expose your ignorance.
Why do you even bother to comment? You really should learn something about the topics you comment on before you make them. Unless, of course, you're doing it for the same reason as I do, for the points. Then go it. It just gives me more material to make points off of your ignorance. In your own way, you are actually fairly amusing.
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If you think I'm 'politically' incorrect you have the wrong politics. |
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LP-SolidRaven
Dictator of the Dump
Joined: 06 Jun 2004
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Location: The cheese is made out of moon
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:19 am Post subject: |
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Ever since religion was starting to go to the background here the cultural and scientific improvements have increased dramatically.
+ You're pretty much idiotic if you claim the church has protected the poor people.
I'll make it short:
The church you pray to and call perfect is far from.
First of all, crusades, anyone? Killing everything that moved in the city. [sarcasm]Nah they sure wouldn't [/sarcasm] And suddenly they realised it was the wrong city. Great going I think. Hands are spoiled with innocent blood.
The second part is their whole system of how to get rid of your 'sins'. If you had enough money you could pay off your sins. What leads to the poor spending all their money for that crap and not for food. => Loads of poor people die cause of hunger
All of that crap has been done by your 'oh so holy' catholic church. Realise that you're defending one of the biggest criminal organisations in history by current standards.
Currently a type of small type of religious revolution is happening. Most of western Europe used to be catholic or protestant. But in the last 20 years this has been fading away. With religion leaving the living conditions have improved quite a bit. Less money is being pumped into religious stuff and more into economy and research. That is why living here is quite good. For example, the health care system, etc... Think about what you could do with all the money that is being pumped into religion. You'd be amazed.
Oh and before you say that Grimoire makes stupid points. You're making a fool of yourself. Basically a homosexual defending the catholic church. Its a beautiful example of how ignorant you are.
The catholic church wants to ban homosexuality.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.....atholicism
So before you continue to defend the corrupt (criminal) catholic church. Please go and read your sources.
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<bart416> I just realized something
<bart416> we celebrate the fact that this piece of rock made one rotation around a glowing ball of plasma that is kept together due to its own gravity well
<njsg> HAPPY NEW YEAR
<Easter> ^^
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linuxdoctor
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not 'defending' anything. I am here typing away making loads of points. That's all I'm doing, and you people lap it up being ever so serious while I am nearly rolling on the floor laughing at you.
I do check my sources and know what I'm talking about. From your own post it is evident you don't. The 'mistake' you mentioned regarding the Second Crusades had nothing to do with the Church. In fact, that mistake was no mistake. The Crusaders were bought off, unbeknown by the Pope, by Venetian merchants who promised to pay for plundered treasure and plundered they did. They didn't care who they plundered so long as they got treasure. When the Pope found out about it, unfortunately not for almost two years afterwards, he called off the Crusade. It was certainly a black mark on the Church that the Church had nothing to do with.
As for 'paying' to get into heaven, that was never true and a blatant misrepresentation of the doctrine of Indulgences fabricated by the Protestant revolutionaries.
You guys don't even try to offer facts, just your own prejudices and therefore become the source of my bemusement. Carry on. The more mistakes you make only gives me reason to post correcting rebuttal and gain more points for myself.
I was getting worried there actually. On the Easter weekend, a fire in my apartment building forced me to flee my home and left me effectively homeless for a few weeks. Most of my equipment has been destroyed and I've been looking for a new place to live ever since living in a hotel room with internet access via wireless. I still am, as a matter of fact but will move into a new place in the next few days.
Anyway, that's neither here nor there. I'm just glad that I've been able to make the points I need to keep my LP account alive for another month so quickly. Thanks guys for posting nonsense for me to rebut. I appreciate it. 
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If you think I'm 'politically' incorrect you have the wrong politics. |
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Grimoire
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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Facts? There are no facts where religion is concerned.
What you do it claim something that someone 1000 or 2000 years ago said as a 'fact', or you use logic to make it look as though what you're saying it impressive, but since the premisses are always based on fantasy and ancient anecdotes and myths, the conclusions can only ever be bollocks.
There are arguments to be made that religion did some good over the centuries, but that is not an argument in favour of religion or all of the baggage and trouble that came along with it.
There were many other ways that any good that religion achieved could have been done in other ways.
All the great art and music for example which is linked to religion. We would still have had great art and music had religion not been prevalent, it's just that it would have been different art and music, but there's no way you can say it wouldn't have been as good because there was no religious connection.
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LP-SolidRaven
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Joined: 06 Jun 2004
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Location: The cheese is made out of moon
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| linuxdoctor wrote: | I'm not 'defending' anything. I am here typing away making loads of points. That's all I'm doing, and you people lap it up being ever so serious while I am nearly rolling on the floor laughing at you.
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I'm rolling on the floor laughing each time I see one of your posts.
Your ignorance is amazing.
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I do check my sources and know what I'm talking about. From your own post it is evident you don't. |
History books, kthxbai
| Quote: | | The 'mistake' you mentioned regarding the Second Crusades had nothing to do with the Church. In fact, that mistake was no mistake. The Crusaders were bought off, unbeknown by the Pope, by Venetian merchants who promised to pay for plundered treasure and plundered they did. |
Still they killed people when they were on crusade, and you can say what you want but the hyper religious crusade leaders wouldn't allow such thing off course, but hey, it did happen.
| Quote: | | They didn't care who they plundered so long as they got treasure. When the Pope found out about it, unfortunately not for almost two years afterwards, he called off the Crusade. It was certainly a black mark on the Church that the Church had nothing to do with. |
If the church wouldn't have done those damn crusades (loads of people died anyway, I hope you remember the quotes like "The blood flowed through the streets of the holy city." good going...
| Quote: | | As for 'paying' to get into heaven, that was never true and a blatant misrepresentation of the doctrine of Indulgences fabricated by the Protestant revolutionaries. |
History Books, If its a protestant lie then please explain why its in loads of history text books (that are very recent) and some of them are even published by publishers with a catholic background, so stop calling it ****, it happened, no point in hiding it.
| Quote: | | You guys don't even try to offer facts, just your own prejudices and therefore become the source of my bemusement. Carry on. The more mistakes you make only gives me reason to post correcting rebuttal and gain more points for myself. |
You're ignoring history books, if I find some time I'll scan some of their old 'images'.
| Quote: | | I was getting worried there actually. On the Easter weekend, a fire in my apartment building forced me to flee my home and left me effectively homeless for a few weeks. Most of my equipment has been destroyed and I've been looking for a new place to live ever since living in a hotel room with internet access via wireless. I still am, as a matter of fact but will move into a new place in the next few days.Anyway, that's neither here nor there. I'm just glad that I've been able to make the points I need to keep my LP account alive for another month so quickly. Thanks guys for posting nonsense for me to rebut. I appreciate it. |
Thanks for writing this last part. I get to report you for going off topic again.
_________________
| Quote: |
<bart416> I just realized something
<bart416> we celebrate the fact that this piece of rock made one rotation around a glowing ball of plasma that is kept together due to its own gravity well
<njsg> HAPPY NEW YEAR
<Easter> ^^
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linuxdoctor
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Joined: 23 Apr 2005
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| SolidRaven wrote: | | History Books, If its a protestant lie then please explain why its in loads of history text books (that are very recent) and some of them are even published by publishers with a catholic background, so stop calling it ****, it happened, no point in hiding it. |
Give me a quotation with references and I'll explain it for you. The dogma of Indulgences have been purposely misrepresented by Protestants for centuries and many historians, ignorant of the teachings, simply repeat what has been said about them. It's as simple as that.
In modern times, most historians are neo-communists or other similar 'left wing' ideologue not particularly friendly to Christ's true Church.
For centuries, historians have blindly repeated the Protestant, and Jewish, accusations concerning the Spanish Inquisitions. Not a single one of them bothered to consult the actual records of the period but repeated the Protestant lies. About half a dozen years ago, researchers at a Spanish university did just that and the records show a much different picture of the period than has been generally accepted by historians. Instead of tens of millions being burned at the stake, as alleged by anti-Catholic hate mongers, only about a thousand were actually put to death in its whole two hundred year history.
This also exposes the incestuous nature of the social sciences where researchers regularly accept as 'gospel' what previous, presumably reputable writers, concluded. Consult almost any history book and skip to the reference section. You will note a dearth of primary sources. In the case of the Spanish Inquisition, this lack of original material caused the historian to get it wrong. National Geographic magazine had an article and a television special on this very subject about 2003 (I think).
Perhaps you should look to the faults of the Protestants and other religions. They have started religious wars of their own, yet curiously nobody wants to talk about them. Catholics seem to get the brunt of it, for some reason. Perhaps it's because they are the True Religion. 
Ah, well. As they say in France, c'est la vie.
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Misanthrope: someone who realizes that humans really are as stupid as they appear.
If you think I'm 'politically' incorrect you have the wrong politics. |
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LP-SolidRaven
Dictator of the Dump
Joined: 06 Jun 2004
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Location: The cheese is made out of moon
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| linuxdoctor wrote: | | SolidRaven wrote: | | History Books, If its a protestant lie then please explain why its in loads of history text books (that are very recent) and some of them are even published by publishers with a catholic background, so stop calling it ****, it happened, no point in hiding it. |
Give me a quotation with references and I'll explain it for you. The dogma of Indulgences have been purposely misrepresented by Protestants for centuries and many historians, ignorant of the teachings, simply repeat what has been said about them. It's as simple as that.
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Give me some time to hook up my scanner.
| Quote: | | ]In modern times, most historians are neo-communists or other similar 'left wing' ideologue not particularly friendly to Christ's true Church. |
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Your 'saviour' Christ always said things in the sense that everybody is equal. And Neo-Communists, I doubt it. Of all people Historians know best that communism doesn't work.
| Quote: | | For centuries, historians have blindly repeated the Protestant, and Jewish, accusations concerning the Spanish Inquisitions. Not a single one of them bothered to consult the actual records of the period but repeated the Protestant lies. |
Funny to know that I saw one of the Inquisition torture chambers last week. If you see them you might realize that what you just said is crap.
| Quote: | | About half a dozen years ago, researchers at a Spanish university did just that and the records show a much different picture of the period than has been generally accepted by historians. Instead of tens of millions being burned at the stake, as alleged by anti-Catholic hate mongers, only about a thousand were actually put to death in its whole two hundred year history. |
Aren't the catholic's the ones against killing people? I mean, you're against abortion.
| Quote: | | This also exposes the incestuous nature of the social sciences where researchers regularly accept as 'gospel' what previous, presumably reputable writers, concluded. Consult almost any history book and skip to the reference section. You will note a dearth of primary sources. In the case of the Spanish Inquisition, this lack of original material caused the historian to get it wrong. National Geographic magazine had an article and a television special on this very subject about 2003 (I think). |
See Inquisition torture chambers. After all that time the smell of dead bodies is still in those damned things.
| Quote: | | Perhaps you should look to the faults of the Protestants and other religions. They have started religious wars of their own, yet curiously nobody wants to talk about them. |
Usually the catholic church started them. Example: Crusades
| Quote: | | Catholics seem to get the brunt of it, for some reason. Perhaps it's because they are the True Religion. |
Arrogance, anyone...
| Quote: | | Ah, well. As they say in France, c'est la vie. |
Next time your in France you should cross the border and go and check one of the inquisition torture chambers. Maybe you'll realize what they did in the name of religion. Any person that is sane will find it disgusting.
_________________
| Quote: |
<bart416> I just realized something
<bart416> we celebrate the fact that this piece of rock made one rotation around a glowing ball of plasma that is kept together due to its own gravity well
<njsg> HAPPY NEW YEAR
<Easter> ^^
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asusreviews.com
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Joined: 24 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:02 am Post subject: |
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The Bible does contradict the Big Bang Theory! The Bible says that God created the universe. He created everything. It did not simply evolve through random chance. There is no way an explosion could have created intelligent life. It's impossible.
The Big Bang theory is just an idea a Scientist came up with to try to explain how the earth was created with out God. How could one explosion create millions of different people, plants, animals, rocks, insects etc. The only thing an explosion can make is a mess.
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LP-SolidRaven
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 5:33 am Post subject: |
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Basic Quantum Mechanics, Improbability laws are the answer asusreviews.com. Newtonian physics define that if you would know the position of every particle in the universe that you could predict the future. In reality its different. The Quantum Mechanics laws at the other hand define the concept of improbability. For example a raindrop always falls towards the surface of the earth. How improbable it is that it would go up, its possible, the chance it happens is just small for it to happen.
Also their is an infinite number of parallel universes. In this one the right actions found place to form something you define as 'life'.
Also your religious theory is also really lacking. If your so called god created the universe, then who created your god...
PS: Looks like I won't need to do any scanning linuxdoctor. Wikipedia to the rescue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence
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| Quote: |
<bart416> I just realized something
<bart416> we celebrate the fact that this piece of rock made one rotation around a glowing ball of plasma that is kept together due to its own gravity well
<njsg> HAPPY NEW YEAR
<Easter> ^^
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linuxdoctor
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Joined: 23 Apr 2005
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Location: Ottawa, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 7:14 am Post subject: |
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| asusreviews.com wrote: | | The Bible does contradict the Big Bang Theory! The Bible says that God created the universe. He created everything. It did not simply evolve through random chance. There is no way an explosion could have created intelligent life. It's impossible. |
The Bible says that God created the universe. It does not say how that happened. It could have been through a process like the Big Bang. God did not reveal how creates, only that he does.
| SolidRaven wrote: | | Basic Quantum Mechanics, Improbability laws are the answer asusreviews.com. |
That isn't an answer at all. That's like the Protestant Fundamentalist saying "the Bible says ..." except you chose to "proof text" science. As for improbability laws ... c'mon!
Don't tell me you are one of those nuts who think that Wikipedia is a reliable source. Anyway, I'll give it a read just for a laugh.
--- Addition ---
Ok, I read the article on Indulgences. It is actually very well written and correct. However, the point that I think you missed is that it was the misuse of Indulgences that was the problem and not the doctrine itself. The reference to Tetzel and his supposed saying is a problem though. There is no reliable source that can actually attest to his ever saying it. It is Luther who appears to have been the first to say it (ref. "The Truth about Luther", O'Hare p. 152). Luther was not the best when it comes to telling the truth, in fact, he was a notorious liar and drunkard. His invention of the Protestant religion stems from one fact only, that he found himself incapable of doing good works because of his drunkenness and feared that he would go to hell. This fear of hell prompted him to invent a system whereby he could still get into heaven without the necessity of doing good works, the theory of "justification by faith alone" was the result.
In any case, I don't see anything about Inquisitions and such other nonsense.
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If you think I'm 'politically' incorrect you have the wrong politics. |
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