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ClickFanatic
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 Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| SolidRaven wrote: | | pharmer4 wrote: | | why not ask which one is more likely to be based in reality - Star Wars or Star Trek? I mean, they both have the same level of imagination in their creation, but religion has been around a lot longer. |
We should focus on that one I think.
The fact is that religion has slowed down scientific advancement a lot in the past. And now the big organized religions are afraid that they might lose their followers (and their income) cause nobody will believe them anymore. |
I think you are too quick to judge on the motives of religious people... 
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Necromis
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:30 am Post subject: |
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pharmer4 - one problem with your sumation is the fact that theories are just that, plausable answers that have not be formally proven yet. Once they are proven they then become law. Secondly, Christianity was obviously not created by prehistoric sub-humans. Unless you think the Roman Empire was around during the time of dinosaurs.  Really religion plays no role in whether evolution is real or not, or its debate. Only evidence, facts, and hypothosis are relivent. Theories by their nature are open to debate and should be. As this is the best way to prove or disprove them. |
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linuxdoctor
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Joined: 23 Apr 2005
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Location: Ottawa, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:27 am Post subject: |
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| pharmer4 wrote: | I love reading these threads.
it is just so hilarious everyone arguing about who's imaginary friend is really exists, or who's "theory" for whatever is the most correct.
linuxdoctor's arguments are very insiteful - in my opinion, there is no point having "theories" about things like evolution etc if:
- you can't adequately prove it is correct
- you can't adequately disprove it is incorrect
- you can't adequately prove an alternative "theory" is correct
- you can't adequately prove an alternative "theory" is incorrect
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One of the interesting things about science is that one cannot actually prove anything with absolute certainty. Science is limited by what it can observe and the accuracy with which observations can be measured. The more accurate the observations the more accurately can we determine the truth of error of a scientific theory. The less accurate an observation the less likely we are able to determine its truth from falsity.
The whole history of modern science is inextricably linked to man's ever increasing ability to take more and better measurements from which scientific theories are made, revised or broken. The ability to better predict the motion of the planets in the night sky and different theories that explained that motion resulted from man's greater ability to observe and measure what was happening in the heavens.
But man will never be able to create instrumentation capable of infinite precision for making absolute measurements, therefore man will never be able to arrive at the truth about the inner workings of the universe scientifically. Theories are only as good as the observations on which they are based. That means theories can never be absolutely true.
| Quote: | - you have no practical use for either theory if one or both were correct
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Does Pharmer4 mean to use the word 'incorrect' here? It makes no sense to me otherwise, unless pharmer4 would care to explain it further. However, on the assumption that he meant to use the word 'incorrect' I can make an interesting observation.
Just because a theory is wrong does not mean that there can be no practical value in its application. I speak here of Newtonian Physics, Relativity supersedes Newton which mean, in effect, Newtonian Physics is wrong. However, for all practical purposes, excepting those with cosmological implications, applying Newtonian Physics is, for all intents and purposes " good enough."
For most earth-bound applications, Relativity does not really give an appreciably different answer from what would be given by Newtonian Physics. The difference is that the mathematics of Relativity is generally but not always) much more difficult to do, so why put oneself through it needlessly?
The answer is, of course, you don't. So even though Newtonian Theory is 'wrong' as compared to Relativity Theory, it is still 'good enough' to do practical things with it.
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Last edited by linuxdoctor on Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Necromis
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| LD wouldn't that then punch a huge whole in your own truth arguement. As what you label as truth might actually be wrong? Isn't in essence religion only a theory? Therefore you cannot say that another off shoot of Christianity is hereitcs and lies. As their theory is as plausable as your own. |
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linuxdoctor
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:48 am Post subject: |
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| Necromis wrote: | | LD wouldn't that then punch a huge whole in your own truth arguement. As what you label as truth might actually be wrong? Isn't in essence religion only a theory? Therefore you cannot say that another off shoot of Christianity is hereitcs and lies. As their theory is as plausable as your own. |
Cute.
Religion is not science, though is it? In the case of the Christian Religion it is based on Divine Revelation from Almighty God himself, so it isn't a man made theory at all.
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Necromis
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| I would not call it science. However, I would call it a theory. After all Man is interpreting the wisdom passed down to individuals. Who is to say that the person whom this knowledge was given delivered it to the next person properly. You are taking evidence from a book. Observations from person writing with in that book and making a theory that God exists and this knowledge is *truth.* So therefore in that sense it is like science. Though not truly science. |
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linuxdoctor
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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This really is out of topic at this point and very complicated to answer. There are many subtleties involved here and it would probably be better to discuss in a new thread in a different subject forum (like Our Oratory).
An example of such a subtlety is when you refer to my "taking evidence from a book." I presume that book is the Bible and that you are saying that Christianity is based on the book. This is in fact false. Christianity is not based on the Bible but produced it. Protestantism, on the other hand, purports to be based on the Bible but is in fact quite counter to it.
So you see, these are fairly complex issues that a thread on the truth of evolution may not be the correct place to deal with them.
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If you think I'm 'politically' incorrect you have the wrong politics. |
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LP-SolidRaven
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| ClickFanatic wrote: | | SolidRaven wrote: | | pharmer4 wrote: | | why not ask which one is more likely to be based in reality - Star Wars or Star Trek? I mean, they both have the same level of imagination in their creation, but religion has been around a lot longer. |
We should focus on that one I think.
The fact is that religion has slowed down scientific advancement a lot in the past. And now the big organized religions are afraid that they might lose their followers (and their income) cause nobody will believe them anymore. |
I think you are too quick to judge on the motives of religious people... |
Remember how they used to kill people for the most stupid things possible.
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linuxdoctor
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| Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| SolidRaven wrote: | | Remember how they (religionists) used to kill people for the most stupid things possible. |
Hey, a group of disgruntled American colonists went to war over a Tea Tax and created a country that proposed all men being equal was self evident. Now that is stupid.
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LP-SolidRaven
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| Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:05 am Post subject: |
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| linuxdoctor wrote: | | Hey, a group of disgruntled American colonists went to war over a Tea Tax and created a country that proposed all men being equal was self evident. Now that is stupid. |
Wrong again, it's one of the reasons. The Tea Tax was mainly a symbolic action from the British after earlier events around that time.
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| Quote: |
<bart416> I just realized something
<bart416> we celebrate the fact that this piece of rock made one rotation around a glowing ball of plasma that is kept together due to its own gravity well
<njsg> HAPPY NEW YEAR
<Easter> ^^
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linuxdoctor
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| Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:58 am Post subject: |
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| SolidRaven wrote: | | linuxdoctor wrote: | | Hey, a group of disgruntled American colonists went to war over a Tea Tax and created a country that proposed all men being equal was self evident. Now that is stupid. |
Wrong again, it's one of the reasons. The Tea Tax was mainly a symbolic action from the British after earlier events around that time. |
It still got the colonists in a traitorous mood that resulted in war. Even so, to openly declare that "all men are created" equal is the height of stupidity, especially considering that its wrong. More people have been killed in the name of 'equality', 'democracy' or 'communism' (all atheistic philosophies) than anything else on the face of the earth. It is most certainly not religion.
In any case, these were non-religionists who went to war for stupid reasons. More war is created not related to religion than anything else. Recent history is ample proof of that. Such people create an atheistic ideology (like Karl Marx) whose followers and successors cause wars and much untold misery (like Joseph Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, and every communist leader that ever existed). Billions of people have been killed by communist regimes of various stripes just in my lifetime; none of these regimes have anything to do with religion. In fact, Karl Marx, one of the engineers of Communism was an avowed jewish atheist who once wrote that relgion was the opiate of the people.
In the end, you will always find people willing to kill somebody else for a cause. Sometimes that cause is good, like monarchism, authoritarianism or totalitarianism, other times it is evil, like democracy or communism. Most such causes have nothing to do with religion and sometimes times they do. The number of non-religions causes people have killed for far outweigh those that do. Some of them, like democracies, they try to have it both ways (like "One Nation under God" and the "separation of church and state" in the US).
Despite this there are people who ridicule religion and religious people because some of their number have committed atrocities while at the same time excuse it in their own beliefs and causes. I find communists and anarchists the most hypocritical in this regard.
In the end, an old adage can be applied applied: don't throw stones in glass houses.
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If you think I'm 'politically' incorrect you have the wrong politics. |
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Necromis
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| Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:47 am Post subject: |
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| LD, based on the teachings of the Bible all men are created equal. For based on the Christian faith we are all created in God's image. There for at birth we all are equal. However, it is the treating of that person from that point forward that makes us more or less equal to the next person. Also a couple of minor mistakes in your facts. The reason for the revolution was taxation without representation. That type of action would cause a revolt in any country presently that is not under a tryanical regiem. Secondly, democracy has its core teachings and foundation based on the christian faith, so you cannot say it is athiest. To be honest there are only two things you can truly label as athiest and that would be athiest and communism. Equality I person think is a very thiest belief. After all the Bible teachs to treat each other equally. Or do you think do unto others as you would have them do unto you teachs something other than equality? Additionally, the current wars ARE religious based. Or do you think the Islamic terrorist engaging in jyhad is an athiest because their name for God is different than yours? Oh and what about the fight over the birth place of Jesus for how many decades? The point. Basically there are lots of wars fought over religion, just like there are not over religion. To say which one is more is mute point to those who lost their lives. |
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linuxdoctor
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| Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Necromis wrote: | | LD, based on the teachings of the Bible all men are created equal. |
Where, precisely? You will find no such teaching anywhere.
| Necromis wrote: | | For based on the Christian faith we are all created in God's image. There for at birth we all are equal. |
Yes, we are all created in God's image, but how does that prove we are all equal? In fact, even a casual look around at the diversity of mankind indicates to me, as it should to you, the infinite variety of God's handiwork. God made us unique not equal so that we may all live our own lives each one to the glory of God. To say that all men are equal is an affront to that uniqueness and to God who made us so.
Just look around you at God's creation and marvel at its uniqueness, including your own. Don't throw that away on some man-made philosophy of a mythical equality.
| Necromis wrote: |
However, it is the treating of that person from that point forward that makes us more or less equal to the next person. Also a couple of minor mistakes in your facts. The reason for the revolution was taxation without representation. That type of action would cause a revolt in any country presently that is not under a tryanical regiem. |
Is that an excuse? The revolutionaries persecuted and even killed anyone who did not support their cause. They were only a minority who decided that they would, by force of arms, impose their will on the other colonists. Many fled north to what is now Canada for fear of persecution. Many who stayed but who did not support the revolution lost their property and livelihood.
Why are you not condemning the American Revolution? Is fighting a war over taxation sufficient cause for war and fighting for God not?
| Necromis wrote: |
Secondly, democracy has its core teachings and foundation based on the christian faith, so you cannot say it is athiest. |
Not true. Modern democracy originates with 18th century Liberalism which is at least agnostic in outlook.
| Necromis wrote: |
To be honest there are only two things you can truly label as athiest and that would be athiest and communism. Equality I person think is a very thiest belief. After all the Bible teachs to treat each other equally. |
No it doesn't. Many heretics think that it does, but in fact it does not.
| Necromis wrote: |
Or do you think do unto others as you would have them do unto you teachs something other than equality? |
It teaches respect for others, not equality. If anything it teaches reciprocity, in that you expect to be treated as you treat others, not equality.
| Necromis wrote: | | Additionally, the current wars ARE religious based. Or do you think the Islamic terrorist engaging in jyhad is an athiest because their name for God is different than yours? |
Not all of them and certainly not most of them. The only war that seems to be religious based is the one the Islamic extremists are perpetrating on the West and acting as insurgents in Afganistan and Iraq. That is only one war. All the others, including Iraq, had nothing to do with religion.
| Necromis wrote: |
Oh and what about the fight over the birth place of Jesus for how many decades? The point. Basically there are lots of wars fought over religion, just like there are not over religion. To say which one is more is mute (sic) point to those who lost their lives. |
It is not a moot point at all. Just count them. Go back, say, three hundred years of history and count the number of wars. How many were based on religion? Very, very few.
My question to you is this: why do you insist on bringing up wars based on religion and are ignoring all the rest? Just because some wars have a religious basis you condemn all religions. Yet you excuse the American Revolution without condemning democracy. This is an interesting dichotomy. You seem to be saying that all religions are bad because sometimes there have been religious wars but democracy is not bad even though wars have been fought for it.
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If you think I'm 'politically' incorrect you have the wrong politics. |
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LP-SolidRaven
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| Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| linuxdoctor wrote: | | It still got the colonists in a traitorous mood that resulted in war. Even so, to openly declare that "all men are created" equal is the height of stupidity, especially considering that its wrong. More people have been killed in the name of 'equality', 'democracy' or 'communism' (all atheistic philosophies) than anything else on the face of the earth. It is most certainly not religion. |
First of all, there was a were a lot of things that lead to that war before the tea tax. In response to the symbolic tea tax there was something called the boston tea party, what lead to the British closing the harbor of Boston and many other things. And the fact that they actually closed the harbor of Boston over such a thing was the major spark that started it.
Also you just stopped making sense you first claim the bible says everybody is equal, now you say equality is an atheist philosophy. You really need to start thinking before you reply.
| linuxdoctor wrote: | | In any case, these were non-religionists who went to war for stupid reasons. More war is created not related to religion than anything else. |
It is only fairly recently in history that wars have been started over non religious reasons. (Past 400 years mainly)
| linuxdoctor wrote: | | Recent history is ample proof of that. Such people create an atheistic ideology (like Karl Marx) whose followers and successors cause wars and much untold misery (like Joseph Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, and every communist leader that ever existed). Billions of people have been killed by communist regimes of various stripes just in my lifetime; none of these regimes have anything to do with religion. In fact, Karl Marx, one of the engineers of Communism was an avowed jewish atheist who once wrote that relgion was the opiate of the people. |
Keep in mind that most of the communism until now was either messed up during the transition governments or by a single person grabbing the power.
| linuxdoctor wrote: | | In the end, you will always find people willing to kill somebody else for a cause. Sometimes that cause is good, like monarchism, authoritarianism or totalitarianism, other times it is evil, like democracy or communism. |
I think you don't even know what you're talking about. IF you would know how many people have died under monarchy. Than you'd probably be stunned. You know what kings used to do? Wars cause they wanted more land. And you call that good...
| linuxdoctor wrote: | | Most such causes have nothing to do with religion and sometimes times they do. The number of non-religions causes people have killed for far outweigh those that do. Some of them, like democracies, they try to have it both ways (like "One Nation under God" and the "separation of church and state" in the US). |
Separation of state, education and religion is the core of a flourishing society. Religion leads to stupid decisions, and religion in education is simply wrong. If they want to do something religious than they can do it in their free time, no need to brainwash them on school.
| linuxdoctor wrote: | | Despite this there are people who ridicule religion and religious people because some of their number have committed atrocities while at the same time excuse it in their own beliefs and causes. I find communists and anarchists the most hypocritical in this regard. |
You're using examples like mao and stalin. Fact is that you named two of the most corrupted totalitarian leaders in history. They claim they're communists but they aren't. You can compare it to china now (in other words "capitalism for communists").
| linuxdoctor wrote: | | In the end, an old adage can be applied applied: don't throw stones in glass houses. |
Uhm, I'll first replace it by windows made out of aerogel or plastic before I start throwing rocks. The only glass house that will break is the one of religion cause people aren't as stupid as they used to be.
_________________
| Quote: |
<bart416> I just realized something
<bart416> we celebrate the fact that this piece of rock made one rotation around a glowing ball of plasma that is kept together due to its own gravity well
<njsg> HAPPY NEW YEAR
<Easter> ^^
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linuxdoctor
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| Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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I think that we are now well and truly off topic for this forum. This is probably better suited in the "Our Oratory" or "The World Around Us."
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Misanthrope: someone who realizes that humans really are as stupid as they appear.
If you think I'm 'politically' incorrect you have the wrong politics. |
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