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linuxdoctor
Infallible Persona
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 1270
Location: Ottawa, Canada
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 Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| SolidRaven wrote: | | Lets just say I'm amazed LD hasn't been banned yet. Also LD, move to another forum; I think everybody will support that. |
Four things. 1. Lighten up. 2. Stop touting the pseudo-socialist neo-liberal party line (eg. nobody is a genius). 3. Find out the real facts. 4. Start thinking for yourself.
_________________
Misanthrope: someone who realizes that humans really are as stupid as they appear.
If you think I'm 'politically' incorrect you have the wrong politics. |
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LP-SolidRaven
Dictator of the Dump
Joined: 06 Jun 2004
Posts: 7270
Location: The cheese is made out of moon
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| linuxdoctor wrote: | | SolidRaven wrote: | | Lets just say I'm amazed LD hasn't been banned yet. Also LD, move to another forum; I think everybody will support that. |
Four things. 1. Lighten up. 2. Stop touting the pseudo-socialist neo-liberal party line (eg. nobody is a genius). 3. Find out the real facts. 4. Start thinking for yourself. |
1. Not for you
2. Stop being a total asshat
3. Find out the facts about dictators and monarchy first
4. You shouldn't be saying that at all, I'm thinking for myself, fact is that you're acting totally brainwashed by religion.
_________________
| Quote: |
<bart416> I just realized something
<bart416> we celebrate the fact that this piece of rock made one rotation around a glowing ball of plasma that is kept together due to its own gravity well
<njsg> HAPPY NEW YEAR
<Easter> ^^
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Kovacs
Lifeless Person
Joined: 12 Jun 2005
Posts: 1403
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| SolidRaven wrote: | | linuxdoctor wrote: | | SolidRaven wrote: | | Lets just say I'm amazed LD hasn't been banned yet. Also LD, move to another forum; I think everybody will support that. |
Four things. 1. Lighten up. 2. Stop touting the pseudo-socialist neo-liberal party line (eg. nobody is a genius). 3. Find out the real facts. 4. Start thinking for yourself. |
1. Not for you
2. Stop being a total asshat
3. Find out the facts about dictators and monarchy first
4. You shouldn't be saying that at all, I'm thinking for myself, fact is that you're acting totally brainwashed by religion. |
I agree with SolidRaven to be honest. You are so stubborn, linuxdoctor... and a total asshole most of the time, even if you do have a well structured argument. |
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linuxdoctor
Infallible Persona
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 1270
Location: Ottawa, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| SolidRaven wrote: | 1. Not for you
2. Stop being a total asshat
3. Find out the facts about dictators and monarchy first
4. You shouldn't be saying that at all, I'm thinking for myself, fact is that you're acting totally brainwashed by religion. |
1. I'm honoured to have been so singled out. That reinforces my uniqueness.
2. I don't even know what that is. Frankly I'm surpirsed that the automated censor didn't "***' out the words.
3. I am a student (in the classical sense) of political history.
4. I didn't know you were a mind reader.
I think you're forgetting the primary rule: don't get sucked into believing your own arguments.
| Kovacs wrote: | | I agree with SolidRaven to be honest. You are so stubborn, linuxdoctor... and a total ****** most of the time, even if you do have a well structured argument. |
Stubborn in that I refuse to succumb to error? Thanks for saying my arguments are well structured, though. I realise that a lot of what I say is somewhat "off the wall," but I do that on purpose. The reality is, however, most of the things I state many of you have said that you agree with me. Some of you have said that when you do agree with me it frightens you.
To both Kovacs and SolidRaven, please address the issues and not the man. Attacking the person is known as ad hominem and is not allowed in any rules of debate. Stick to the issues.
The problem with debates like this where one side takes a hostile position is that the participants allow their emotions to run away with them. Take the current anti-religious sentiment running rampant in this thread. Inevitably one side will bring up the Crusades and the Inquisitions (invariably referred to as The Inqusition as if there was only one lasting centuries) in an accusing manner expecting the other side to collapse under it. The problem is what most people know about the Crusades and the Inquisitions are from anti-Christian sources who have no love for the Catholic Church or, for that matter, the truth.
The facts about the Crusades and the Inquisitions stand in stark opposition to popular myth. In some cases even past historians succumbed to the myths that only modern scholarship has been able to correct. Take the case of the Spanish Inquisition. According to the myth, tens of thousands of people lost their lives at the hands of Church inquisitors. The facts are that the Spanish Inquisition was not run by the Church but by the Spanish government under the auspices of the king and queen and, horror of horrors, less than a thousand people were actually executed at the stake. Despite this, the Black Legend persists. The same can be said of the crusades, although I won't go into it here because this post is too long already.
A debater who has to resort to such tactics as this relying on emotionalism and the ignorance of his opponent, he doesn't have much of an argument. The anti-religionists have demonstrated this amply.
_________________
Misanthrope: someone who realizes that humans really are as stupid as they appear.
If you think I'm 'politically' incorrect you have the wrong politics. |
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Necromis
Lifeless on my Boat
Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 797
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:03 am Post subject: |
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| LD, I agree, that sticking to the debate topic is best. However, to imply that some one is anti-religion is also taking that on an emotional level. After all you learn in debate to be able to to defend both sides. Pro/Con. Therefore, I could debate on behalf of religion or against. I have actually made arguments for both sides even within my on disagreement of religious facts. One thing I would have to disagree with you on is the Crusades. Whether propagated by Muslims or Christians, these were wars over faith, and the claim to the Holy Lands. Religion at its core is not a bad thing. However, at times those in power wtihin the church do things in the name of the religion that are very wrong. Just as currently some Muslims do things that most Muslims feel are wrong and are against. To be honest the simple fact is man does bad things at times, and some times he claims it in the name of religion and in others he does not. |
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LP-SolidRaven
Dictator of the Dump
Joined: 06 Jun 2004
Posts: 7270
Location: The cheese is made out of moon
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| linuxdoctor wrote: | | 1. I'm honoured to have been so singled out. That reinforces my uniqueness. |
1. You're now on the list that has about 99.99999% of the people on this stupid piece of rock listed.
| Quote: | | 2. I don't even know what that is. Frankly I'm surpirsed that the automated censor didn't "***' out the words. |
| Quote: | | One whose head is so far up their rear end it could pass for a hat; used to describe a person who is stubborn, cruel, or otherwise unpleasant to be around. |
-- Urban Dictionary
| Quote: | | 3. I am a student (in the classical sense) of political history. |
Stop the lies, if that were true you wouldn't talk like that about monarchy.
| Quote: | | 4. I didn't know you were a mind reader. |
I am, now you figured out. Happy now?
| Quote: | | I think you're forgetting the primary rule: don't get sucked into believing your own arguments. |
I suggest you say that against yourself first.
_________________
| Quote: |
<bart416> I just realized something
<bart416> we celebrate the fact that this piece of rock made one rotation around a glowing ball of plasma that is kept together due to its own gravity well
<njsg> HAPPY NEW YEAR
<Easter> ^^
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Kovacs
Lifeless Person
Joined: 12 Jun 2005
Posts: 1403
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| linuxdoctor wrote: | | I think you're forgetting the primary rule: don't get sucked into believing your own arguments. |
Why argue for something you don't believe in? |
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Necromis
Lifeless on my Boat
Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 797
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| Kovacs that is at the core of being a debator. It is the first thing you learn when learning to debate. You must be able to defend both sides of a topic. |
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Kovacs
Lifeless Person
Joined: 12 Jun 2005
Posts: 1403
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 10:21 am Post subject: |
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| Necromis wrote: | | Kovacs that is at the core of being a debator. It is the first thing you learn when learning to debate. You must be able to defend both sides of a topic. |
True. But it is pointless arguing for something you have no belief in, otherwise you are just arguing for the sake of arguing... |
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Necromis
Lifeless on my Boat
Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 797
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:14 am Post subject: |
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Ah, not true. Debating is not arguing. You should consider debating like chess, or fencing, and no not fencing stolen goods.  It is matching your whit against another's trying to win in the mental arena. |
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Kovacs
Lifeless Person
Joined: 12 Jun 2005
Posts: 1403
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:16 am Post subject: |
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| Necromis wrote: | | Ah, not true. Debating is not arguing. You should consider debating like chess, or fencing, and no not fencing stolen goods. It is matching your whit against another's trying to win in the mental arena. |
I would accept that if this was a debate club, which people join with the sole purpose of debating for the fun of it. But this is not a debate club, this is a place for discussion on subjects that should interest you. Anyway, you're drawing me into a debate and I'm not in a mood for thinking right now, so I'm going to go back to rotting my brain  |
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linuxdoctor
Infallible Persona
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 1270
Location: Ottawa, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| Kovacs wrote: | | Necromis wrote: | | Kovacs that is at the core of being a debator. It is the first thing you learn when learning to debate. You must be able to defend both sides of a topic. |
True. But it is pointless arguing for something you have no belief in, otherwise you are just arguing for the sake of arguing... |
The point of arguing a position you do not hold is to be better able to understand the other side's argument. What better way to argue against it than to know the facts of the other side? Arguing against a position you do not fully understand yourself opens you up to charges of ignorance and rightfully so. Being able to defend the opposition helps you gain a better grasp of what you are arguing against.
There is another reason, and I think perhaps one that is more important, why you should argue a position that youdo not hold. By examining a contrary opinion to your own you just may discover that you are wrong. It gives you an opportunity to seek out the truth and discover for yourself what the opposing view really is. Too often we rely on other people to tell us what others believe and that is more often than not coloured by their own prejudices. It is far better, and more certain, to discover for yourself what the truth is than relying on the opinion of others.
Debating with others is a wonderful way to clear out the clutter and get to the heart of an issue and in that it is an invaluable tool. To be a good debater one must first know the facts. That is why one of the first things you will learn about debating is to be able to see all sides of an issue for that way you learn the truth for all angles.
On this list, I do it for points and for effect. That others are annoyed by my style is just a bonus.
| Kovacs wrote: | | I would accept that if this was a debate club, which people join with the sole purpose of debating for the fun of it. But this is not a debate club, this is a place for discussion on subjects that should interest you. Anyway, you're drawing me into a debate and I'm not in a mood for thinking right now, so I'm going to go back to rotting my brain" |
I take that to be a societal problem. People prefer not to think and allow other to do it for them. As a result, when some piece of information comes up that they do not understand or is contrary to their own point of view, formed by propaganda and personal prejudice, their first reaction is to attack those who hold such strange positions. Like monarchy and dictatorship is better than democracy, We see it here. Rather than defend democracy, the reaction is to attack the person who holds a contrary view.
But that's fine. You don't need to think. Others are doing it for you already and they will tell you what you need to know and what to do.
_________________
Misanthrope: someone who realizes that humans really are as stupid as they appear.
If you think I'm 'politically' incorrect you have the wrong politics. |
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Necromis
Lifeless on my Boat
Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 797
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| LD, there is at the core nothing better or worse about democracy compaired to monarchy. They both can be great or terrible things. Dependant upon those in charge. There have been, in the past, monarchies ruled by kind and generious kings/queens. Who did great things for their people and looked out for the country's, as a whole, well-being. Rather than their own selfish ways. There are also some democracies that have been terrible, because those with the power abuse it and cater to a small few rather than the good of the whole. This can be seen in many including the US at some given points in time. I would, however, have to state that a Democracy more frequently provides the individual more liberty and say in the process of the country than a Monarchy. Even though they don't always have their vote on the winning side. |
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Kovacs
Lifeless Person
Joined: 12 Jun 2005
Posts: 1403
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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| linuxdoctor wrote: | I take that to be a societal problem. People prefer not to think and allow other to do it for them. As a result, when some piece of information comes up that they do not understand or is contrary to their own point of view, formed by propaganda and personal prejudice, their first reaction is to attack those who hold such strange positions. Like monarchy and dictatorship is better than democracy, We see it here. Rather than defend democracy, the reaction is to attack the person who holds a contrary view.
But that's fine. You don't need to think. Others are doing it for you already and they will tell you what you need to know and what to do. |
It's not that I don't think for myself. It's just that right now I'm not entirely sober, I'm having to deal with a friend who lost someone close to them on Christmas day (I only just found this out... Oh it's awkward) and I am set on my beliefs for this particular subject and I know that no amount of arguing can persuade me otherwise. I'm atheist... so other than the theory of evolution what other alternative am I likely to accept? Sure I could come up with some insane theory but it seems logical to me as it is without even taking physical evidence into account and so I'm sticking with it. Thus why I don't want to enter in this debate. And any other underlying debate going on... well I just don't care enough about to satisfy my opposition's needs. And now I'm going to go back to not caring for the rest of the night. |
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LP-Harvey
Forum Moderator
Joined: 23 Feb 2004
Posts: 3286
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| And we're done. |
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