| If you will die tonight were will you go in heaven or in hell? |
| heaven |
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31% |
[ 48 ] |
| hell |
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8% |
[ 13 ] |
| I don't know |
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19% |
[ 30 ] |
| I don't care |
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5% |
[ 8 ] |
| It will be the end |
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18% |
[ 28 ] |
| I will be reincarnated |
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15% |
[ 24 ] |
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| Total Votes : 151 |
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| Author |
Message |
linuxdoctor
Infallible Persona
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 1247
Location: Ottawa, Canada
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 Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Spook wrote: | | It doesn't matter. Such questions are inconsequential and beyond the reasoning of man anyway. You're wasting your time asking the question, and hindering civilisation from making any useful progress. Such seems to be a habit of religion. |
That is rather interesting since it is religion that spends most of its time asking questions abut the nature of man, his place in the universe and his relation to it.
Religion is essential to man since it is God who created him in the first place. God is trying to make himself understood to the world, the problem is that man gets in the way. One of the tenets of Christian theology is that the existence of God can be discerned from nature. In earlier centuries when man was closer to nature nobody would dispute that. In modern times when most of the Western world lives in cities devoid of nature it is now a subject of debate.
For those who live in the cities and are completely surrounded by evidence of man's supremacy over nature (except when nature asserts its superiority with earthquakes, hurricanes, volcanic erruprions ....), it become easy to accept such garbage as Mormonism, the 33 thousand flavours of Protestantism or even the science fiction religion of Scientology
Hey, when you lose sight of God you lose sight of yourself. That is what these false religions want to do. They want to distract you from the true message. The Holy Council of Trent, in its Catechism, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit said this, "all other societies arrogating to themselves the name of church (calling themselves churches) must necessarily, because they are guided by the spirit of the devil be sunk in the most pernicious errors."
These questions are not inconsequential and they do matter. All questions that man is capable of asking deserve an answer. That is why we have science which mean, in its proper context, the persuit of knowledge.
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Misanthrope: someone who realizes that humans really are as stupid as they appear.
If you think I'm 'politically' incorrect you have the wrong politics. |
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linuxdoctor
Infallible Persona
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 1247
Location: Ottawa, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| commonsense wrote: | | how about this i wont die tonight so i dont worry. |
You don't know that. There could be a cartel of assassins after you or you might get run over by a drunk driver stepping off a bus.
One thing is certain, whatever Protestants/Fundamentalists tell you is a lie.
The guy who founded their religion in the 15th century was a drunk who decided that because of his drink he couldn't get into heaven. So, instead of taking responsibility for his own life he decided to blame the Catholic Church for all of the world's ills. He decided that instead of his drink being responsible for his being bad, and therefore negating his possibility of getting into heaven, that being good was no longer necessary. Suddenly, after fifteen hundred years of Christianity, just believing that Jesus would save you was enough, that you had do nothing at all and that whatever sins you committed, even to murder "thousands upon thousands of people," as Martin Luther himself had done, would still allow you to get into heaven.
Martin Luther, the previously mentioned drunk, said that being good no longer mattered. All one had to have was faith. That was about all that Luther had left.
Well the pattern of blaming the Church for all of the world's ills continues. Protestants like Dan Brown continue to do the devil's work. It's a good thing that the devil doesn't understand God's plan (Matt. 16:18.)
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Misanthrope: someone who realizes that humans really are as stupid as they appear.
If you think I'm 'politically' incorrect you have the wrong politics. |
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Spook
Fre-Fr-Fr-Fr-Freestyler
Joined: 05 Dec 2004
Posts: 843
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| Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 4:29 am Post subject: |
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| linuxdoctor wrote: | | commonsense wrote: | | how about this i wont die tonight so i dont worry. |
You don't know that. There could be a cartel of assassins after you or you might get run over by a drunk driver stepping off a bus.
One thing is certain, whatever Protestants/Fundamentalists tell you is a lie.
The guy who founded their religion in the 15th century was a drunk who decided that because of his drink he couldn't get into heaven. So, instead of taking responsibility for his own life he decided to blame the Catholic Church for all of the world's ills. He decided that instead of his drink being responsible for his being bad, and therefore negating his possibility of getting into heaven, that being good was no longer necessary. Suddenly, after fifteen hundred years of Christianity, just believing that Jesus would save you was enough, that you had do nothing at all and that whatever sins you committed, even to murder "thousands upon thousands of people," as Martin Luther himself had done, would still allow you to get into heaven.
Martin Luther, the previously mentioned drunk, said that being good no longer mattered. All one had to have was faith. That was about all that Luther had left.
Well the pattern of blaming the Church for all of the world's ills continues. Protestants like Dan Brown continue to do the devil's work. It's a good thing that the devil doesn't understand God's plan (Matt. 16:18.) |
You can fault other religions all you like, in many athiests' eyes no religion holds any credibility than any other. Just because you've been raised to believe that your religion is belief and others are not does not mean that that belief is correct in any form. Many children are raised to believe that there is a Santa Claus or tooth fairy - you can see the effect they have, you can see the 'proof' they exist, and children blindly believe it. Children with no previous beliefs will believe anything they are told, and apparently, will reject other beliefs for the rest of their life. It is this close-minded nature that calls into question the place of religion in modern society.
You need to realise, it appears to anyone who does not subscribe to your beliefs that you've simply been brainwashed - you've been told to believe something when you didn't know better, and now you're just rejecting the notation that your beliefs could POSSIBLY be wrong, as you've been told that doing so would be a lack of faith. Stop it. Such an attitude is arrogant, stubborn, and prevents tolerance in a manner that creates a world where Christians can't coexist with Muslims without wanting to blow each other up. Accept that you might be wrong as you have been in the past, just as science accepts that their theories might be wrong, and your religion might hold any credibility.
Look at the blind faith with which the people of these 'false religions' preach and realise that you sound exactly the same. To anyone who hasn't been raised to believe in a god and fear a devil, you sound just as ridiculous as they. Heck, if all of them aren't right, how can you be so sure you are, especially when you see the **** religious hatred leaves us in?
Nobody can ever know that there is a god, devil, or afterlife, so stop worrying about them and get on with living a good life. A good life where you do good for others out of MORALITY, rather than because you feel obliged to.
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-[SpooK]
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CosminG
Not a Lifeless Person
Joined: 12 Sep 2004
Posts: 1344
Location: Romania - Oradea
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Spook
Fre-Fr-Fr-Fr-Freestyler
Joined: 05 Dec 2004
Posts: 843
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| Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| CosminG wrote: | I do not know about you, but I didn't belived in Santa Claus or tooth fairy.
I am for living a good life, but Humans without God can not live a good life.
| commonsense wrote: | | how about this i wont die tonight so i dont worry. |
Maby, but we never know. |
There is no god in the life of myself or most of the people I know, and we live better lives than most. We are happy and good to others. You are wrong in saying that.
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clpo13
Zarkin' frood
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Posts: 1210
Location: Washington
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| Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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Atheists have probably done more good for the world than have Christians. Christians tend to be too hung up on converting people (or damning them) to do nice things.
I don't need God to tell me how to be a good person. I can see with my own eyes the benefits of doing good things.
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"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism." --Thomas Jefferson
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Xtreme
Lifeless Person
Joined: 14 Aug 2004
Posts: 1325
Location: New Orleans, LA, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Atheists have probably done more good for the world than have Christians. |
How can you make that statement? It is self defeating. To be atheist is to deny an objective moral or ethical code because being atheist denies any sort of transcendent order or creator that might have instilled or may uphold that code.
If no such natural law exists, how can one person have done "more good" than someone else? Surely some people HAVE, indeed, done "more good" than others, but making that claim necessitates the existance of some order or natural law that transcends our own existance.
If you're a relativist, you can't possibly expect other people to agree with you because, according to your own alleged views, their opinion might be just as right as yours. That given, what's the point of debating anyway?
From a relativistic point of view, you can't say there's anything unacceptable about someone coming to your house and robbing you tonight, because for that individual, that might be "right." Surely there seems to be some protest against this action, but any such reach for a natural standard or law indicates that some transcendent force calls for such a law.
| Quote: | | I can see with my own eyes the benefits of doing good things. |
If that is so, then there must necessarily exist something besides yourself - something transcending your own natural being - defines what is a "good thing." You yourself cannot have defined what is a "good thing" because you claim to have perceived it externally.
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OASAASLLS
ΦMA Sinfonia
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clpo13
Zarkin' frood
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Posts: 1210
Location: Washington
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| Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 1:36 am Post subject: |
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I define good as being beneficial to the world. I'm not talking about moral or ethical good, but of practical good. I don't hold doors open for the elderly because it's the right thing to do. I do it to make life easier on them. I would like to have someone hold a door open for me when I get older, so I might as well set an example while I can. If I ever decide to research some medicine to cure AIDS, I won't do it for any moral reason. I'd do it to better the world, and cure a great many people. Healthy people are better people.
Mine is not an easily defensible argument, especially at midnight, so I won't even bother any more tonight. You make too many assumptions for me to correct in one night.
And yes, something greater than me did define what a "good thing" is: society. Although I don't really see such actions as "good," necessarily. It's more like "beneficial," or something similar. "Good" is too vague of a term, as you so kindly pointed out.
_________________
"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism." --Thomas Jefferson
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CosminG
Not a Lifeless Person
Joined: 12 Sep 2004
Posts: 1344
Location: Romania - Oradea
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:54 am Post subject: |
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| Spook wrote: | | CosminG wrote: | I do not know about you, but I didn't belived in Santa Claus or tooth fairy.
I am for living a good life, but Humans without God can not live a good life.
| commonsense wrote: | | how about this i wont die tonight so i dont worry. |
Maby, but we never know. |
There is no god in the life of myself or most of the people I know, and we live better lives than most. We are happy and good to others. You are wrong in saying that. |
I am glad to hear that you live a good life. I know a lot of people trying to live a good life without God and they are thinking for them, others do not matter so much.
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Duck
Pinko Liberal Communist
Joined: 21 Dec 2004
Posts: 1558
Location: Canada
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unreal_me
Forum Regular
Joined: 01 Aug 2005
Posts: 363
Location: My Room
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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ok instead of reading all the freaking reading all 22 pages and quoting 10 different posts I shal say this.
"If you die tonight where will you go?" my guess, the morgue :p
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The amount of homework students get is officially obscene.
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memoryproblems
Liberal Progressive
Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 2647
Location: Anartica
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Nocturnal
Novice Poster
Joined: 13 Jun 2006
Posts: 36
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:26 am Post subject: |
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| memoryproblems wrote: | | absolutely excellent point. i think we all get too serious with discussion with where were going and such forth. live the best life you can in your eyes and you'll go to the place you deserve. Thats a while in the future, my advice: party now, pray later. |
Your only problem with that view is that according to many religions, living a good life does not gaurantee that you go to the place you deserve. Christianity teaches that it isn't how good you are, but whether or not you believe in Christ and have a personal relationship with Him (and btw, Christ is God).
Also, party now, pray later sounds fun until you get in a car accident after that party and don't have time to pray... The biggest problem I see in the Christian world today is that people say they believe, but they certainly don't live it. Our actions should be molded by our beliefs and we should not do good because we are trying to earn our way into Heaven, but that we should do good because we want to and so that we can glorify God.
I use Christianity as a reference because this is the one I am most familiar with; however, I know that there are many other religions that go right along with this. And I do know that some religions do reward you for being a good person, but I'm just saying, what if they are wrong? |
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chasen
Adept Poster
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 73
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Nocturnal wrote: | | memoryproblems wrote: | | absolutely excellent point. i think we all get too serious with discussion with where were going and such forth. live the best life you can in your eyes and you'll go to the place you deserve. Thats a while in the future, my advice: party now, pray later. |
Your only problem with that view is that according to many religions, living a good life does not gaurantee that you go to the place you deserve. Christianity teaches that it isn't how good you are, but whether or not you believe in Christ and have a personal relationship with Him (and btw, Christ is God).
Also, party now, pray later sounds fun until you get in a car accident after that party and don't have time to pray... The biggest problem I see in the Christian world today is that people say they believe, but they certainly don't live it. Our actions should be molded by our beliefs and we should not do good because we are trying to earn our way into Heaven, but that we should do good because we want to and so that we can glorify God.
I use Christianity as a reference because this is the one I am most familiar with; however, I know that there are many other religions that go right along with this. And I do know that some religions do reward you for being a good person, but I'm just saying, what if they are wrong? |
Well, this is what I see as the largest dividing point between the religions of the world. On one side, religions say, "Well, if you believe in our religion, our God, you have a ticket to heaven." Others think it isn't so simple, such as (a most prominent example) Buddhism. Buddhists believe that Karma, or ones good and bad deeds, judges their chances of entry into Nirvana and also one's mortal future.
There are very few religions that will have a view that rest upon this point. In fact, I am hard-pressed to name one. The Christian faith, though, forms a group of people who will try to take advantage of the beliefs, and only go by a 'quick fix' approach. Obviously this isn't the point in religion.
I guess i'm getting boring here. I have this odd suspicion, though I have no factual proof, that all religion stemmed from different ways to try to help people want to be moral. "But what is moral, who can judge that?" One may say. I really don't see where finding morals is such a problem in most cases. Children inherently often know when they are doing wrong. But, I suppose I will reference Eastern faiths in how to define moral. That which is for the good of all, and the least selfish is the most moral.
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CosminG
Not a Lifeless Person
Joined: 12 Sep 2004
Posts: 1344
Location: Romania - Oradea
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| Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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What is moral is defined by God. That is why we have the Bible. Of course you can to do not agree, but the religions are very different. It is hard to know wich one is right. Search with the will to find the truth and you will find it, but if you want you can always find excuses for your deeds.
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