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Religion and the concept of Faith

 
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aequitas
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Joined: 29 Apr 2007
Posts: 22
Location: North Carolina

PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 3:25 pm    Post subject: Religion and the concept of Faith Reply with quote

I'm a Sociology major and I recently had a class that discussed the Sociology of Religion. I had an interesting thought earlier today about this topic and I thought I'd expand on it a bit. It might be a little touchy for some people, but most of the people on here seem intelligent enough to actually stop and think about what's being said and not merely tune it out and go on a religious rampage about how their beliefs are absolute. With that being said, I encourage everyone to read this and leave your thoughts/beliefs/ideas. I really want to hear people's perspectives and thoughts on this, just try to keep it intelligent and respectful. Discussion and disagreement is fine, but I don't want a mindless war starting.

One of the basic principles of almost any religion is the concept of faith. You are supposed to have faith in your God (or gods) and believe in them, even though you can not see them, touch them, or speak directly with them to reaffirm your belief in them. People will always say that miracles happen and that this is proof of the existence of God/gods. There is a problem with this, however. Every religion will tell you that their beliefs are true. Several religions go as far as to say that they are the only way to achieve true happiness, be it in the form of heaven, nirvana, etc. The existence of countless religions should make one wonder, "How do I know which religion to place my faith in?" It's not just a question of whether you have faith, but where you choose to place it.

I'll use this as an example: choosing which religion to have faith in is a lot like waking up in the middle of a room. In this room, there are roughly twenty different hallways extending out away from the room. My guess would be that, after the initial shock, you would rationalize that there has to be an exit somewhere and you believe, through faith, that this exit exists. The problem, however, is that you have no idea which hallway leads to this exit. Is there only one hallway that will lead to the exit, or are there several? What will happen if you go down the wrong hallway? Does an exit actually exist?

The same can be said of religion. You are supposed to make a choice, based on faith alone, as to what your religious beliefs will be. How do you know where to place this faith? Is the act of having faith in some higher power enough, even if you are unsure of the specifics? Like the hallway example, are there multiple paths to the exit, or have you simply imagined this exit because it gives you a sense of purpose and hope?

I think that should be enough to get people thinking. So, this would be the part where you tell me what you think. Remember, keep it civil and try to provide something meaningful rather than posting for the sole purpose of criticizing someone else's thoughts and beliefs.
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Xtreme
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Joined: 14 Aug 2004
Posts: 1326
Location: New Orleans, LA, USA

PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's somewhat less complex than it may seem at first, I think.

Quote:
You are supposed to make a choice, based on faith alone, as to what your religious beliefs will be. How do you know where to place this faith?


Here's the problem in your reasoning - the choice is NOT made on faith alone. Theologically speaking, the soul is the component of the human person that is able to have faith in God; therefore, since the WHOLE human person must be invested in the religion, not ONLY faith decides where faith is placed.

Reason and logic come to mind. A religion that is not self-consistent and then universally consistent cannot hold its own theologically.

But the most important thing is complete fulfillment. Christians love Christ not because we see miracles, but because we eat of Him and are made utterly and completely full.

I am fulfilled by God and His humility in His sacrifice and boundless love. My capacity for understanding, for logic, and for reason are in total tandem with this faith. I am uplifted and made whole by it.

And so I can then begin to take steps towards God in my faith. The path ahead is, at least at first, made clear by not JUST faith, but by reason, among other things. Thus I now have both a foundation in reason and a path to walk in faith.

Indeed, though, as you suggest, it seems to me that exploration of various faiths is almost always a step towards Truth. Even if someone was to always have constant faith in God with little or no doubt throughout his life, it would still serve him well to be educated about the details and ideas of others' ways of thinking. At the least, it helps identify with others.

I see where you're coming from. Still, it's not simply a "shut-my-eyes-tight-and-leap" sort of ordeal. At least it hasn't been for me or anyone I know. I don't want to rule that out entirely, but it doesn't seem to make as much sense to me, personally on philosophical, logical, or theological levels.
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marinaroz
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Joined: 04 Mar 2004
Posts: 2876
Location: Israel

PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2007 1:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Religion and the concept of Faith Reply with quote

aequitas wrote:
You are supposed to make a choice, based on faith alone, as to what your religious beliefs will be. How do you know where to place this faith?


Do you actually believe that most people get to make any kind of informed choice? They don't. Most people grow up with a religion or a lack of it, and they stick up to it. After all, no man is an island, and religion (or the lack of it) is not a private thing, but something you experience together with your family and friends. I think that the choices we make are more influenced by the people around us than by any kind of innate faith in God.

Besides that, some religions are rather exclusive, so if you weren't born it, you'll never be comletely accepted in. So even if you would like to choose that particular god as your own, the other believers will not take you in.
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Xtreme
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Joined: 14 Aug 2004
Posts: 1326
Location: New Orleans, LA, USA

PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Do you actually believe that most people get to make any kind of informed choice? They don't. Most people grow up with a religion or a lack of it, and they stick up to it. After all, no man is an island, and religion (or the lack of it) is not a private thing, but something you experience together with your family and friends. I think that the choices we make are more influenced by the people around us than by any kind of innate faith in God.


Just because a strikingly significant portion of young people these days immerse themselves in apathy and self-imposed ignorance does not mean that we can suddenly acquit them of any responsibility for their actions or beliefs.

Saying that "no one gets to make any kind of informed choice" is a straw-man argument, if it can be considered an argument at all. Virtually everyone who has the desire for any sort of Truth can seek it out on his own; no one is forced, by their upbringing or by any other person or group, to believe anything. "Blaming" or even attributing one's religion entirely to one's parents is immature and rooted in an apparent disregard for understanding - it's something I would hope the average 10 - 14 year old would begin to investigate.

Quote:
Besides that, some religions are rather exclusive, so if you weren't born it, you'll never be comletely accepted in. So even if you would like to choose that particular god as your own, the other believers will not take you in.


Personally, I've never heard of any such religion. Even for a completely fabricated set of theological concepts, it would seem that this exclusivity is counterintuitive.

Most definitely no Christian denomination is exclusive in this manner.

I would be interested as to which religions you are referring.
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aequitas
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Joined: 29 Apr 2007
Posts: 22
Location: North Carolina

PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Xtreme wrote:
Here's the problem in your reasoning - the choice is NOT made on faith alone.

I guess I should have picked a better way to express that thought. I don't necessarily agree that religion is chosen by faith alone. It has quite a bit to do with social structure as well. If you were raised in a certain location and a certain religion is prevalent in that society, and if your parents are believers in that religion and teach you that it is the truth, you will be significantly more likely to grow up believing in it without ever trying to discover what religion is right for YOU.

I think it's extremely important to challenge your religious beliefs. I was raised Christian and every time I would ask a question that challenged the belief system of Christianity, he would tell me that "it is not for us to know" and that "we are not meant to understand." I'm not the kind of person that can leave it at that, so it only caused me to further challenge my beliefs. I think it's vital that people make up their own minds. Ask questions, even if members of your particular religious group may look at you differently. People might even consider it blasphemous to challenge traditional religious views, but I believe that if your religion is truly right for you, challenging your beliefs will only serve to strengthen your faith.

The problem is that religion IS a personal thing, whether you belong to a community or a group that shares similar ideals or not. There's no blanket statement that can be made to cover how everyone is going to react to or express religion because of the personal nature of religion itself.

I consider myself Agnostic even though I was raised Christian. I still believe in many of the fundamentals that I learned from Christianity (the concept of good and evil, right vs. wrong, the idea of helping your neighbors, etc.), but I don't believe that it is possible in this lifetime to have definitive proof that either confirms or denies the existence of a God-like figure or figures. I've seen it argued both ways more times than I care to count, but I've never seen any thing I can consider real proof on either side. The non-falsifiability of religion is one of the things that makes it so intriguing to me.

Xtreme wrote:
marinaroz wrote:
Besides that, some religions are rather exclusive, so if you weren't born it, you'll never be comletely accepted in. So even if you would like to choose that particular god as your own, the other believers will not take you in.


Personally, I've never heard of any such religion. Even for a completely fabricated set of theological concepts, it would seem that this exclusivity is counterintuitive.


That's the initial reaction I had. I understand that religion means all sorts of different things to different people and it has a very personal tone, but I think "counterintuitive" is the perfect word to describe a religion that you would have to be born into for acceptance. If you truly believe something to be the truth, especially something such as a religious belief, is it not the goal of most religions to share that belief with other people? Like I said earlier, it's all a matter of personal beliefs, I guess. The whole concept of a private religion just doesn't make much since from a Sociological standpoint, unless of course those involved in the religion would be persecuted where they are for having such beliefs. I'd be very interested in hearing which religions you are speaking of as well, marinaroz.
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Xtreme
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Joined: 14 Aug 2004
Posts: 1326
Location: New Orleans, LA, USA

PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The non-falsifiability of religion is one of the things that makes it so intriguing to me.


Indeed, I think this is what grabs the minds of many.

However, if Truth could be fully grasped and embraced simply by sitting in an armchair and reflecting all day, why would any God have given us a whole lifetime full of opportunity in the first place? If the human person could come to a full realization of ultimate Truth simply by thinking a lot, then what's the deal with everything else in the world except comfy chairs to sit around and think in?

I think that the offer of a social, physical, mental, spiritual, recreational, scientific, interpersonal, (etc etc etc) life is strongly indicative that we are called to search for Truth not just with our minds, but with more - our entire humanity.

This is why I think philosophers can prove virtually ANYTHING to themselves - they cut two legs off of their 3-legged stool, leaving only the philosophical, mental concepts. I have seen "apparently valid proofs" by the SAME person that "prove" that we can know both nothing and everything.

Clearly there's more to this than just mental workouts. Philosophy is one means of seeking Truth, but if we let it (or anything else, for that matter) be our ONLY means, we find ourselves peering over the edge of a slippery slope.

However, that is not to say that philosophy will eventually break down in the face of Truth. If something is an ultimate Truth, then no correct means of describing it will contradict any other correct means.

Quote:
Ask questions, even if members of your particular religious group may look at you differently. People might even consider it blasphemous to challenge traditional religious views, but I believe that if your religion is truly right for you, challenging your beliefs will only serve to strengthen your faith.


I was immersed in an environment where healthy questioning of the Catholic faith was essentially mandatory. Some of my theology classes were simply a combination of typical questions (and their answers) and the posing of our own questions to our teachers (and the resulting discussion and explanations).

I find that faithful and honest questioning of one's religion is the earliest true step to moving forward and embracing it. Those who practice a religion without understanding it (i.e., why they believe what they do, why they have a certain practice or ceremony, what the philosophy and theology behind things are, etc) cannot, it seems, be said to be true followers of that religion, in a sense.

And so, I agree: questioning one's faith with an honest attempt to gain fuller understanding can only lead to deeper and more complete faith if, indeed, the religion reflects the Truth.
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Duck
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Joined: 21 Dec 2004
Posts: 1558
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2007 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing with this argument is that it doesn't really lead anywhere. Marinaoz pointed out that most people are born, and their family is of one religion (or atheist), and the vast majority of people in their area are of the same religion, and thusly it's the normal thing to do and they grow up without it being especially challenged.

Alternatively, somebody might have their faith challenged, and then, yes, they do realize that having to choose a faith is basically a pretty crappy situation. I would say, however, that once somebody is insecure enough in their faith to realize and pay attention to this reality, that they're unlikely to make the leap required to latch on to a new faith. A leap with this sort of knowledge is, after all, a lot harder to commit to than the 'leap' that is basically just conforming to a norm.
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aequitas
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Joined: 29 Apr 2007
Posts: 22
Location: North Carolina

PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2007 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree, Duck, that most religious arguments won't lead anywhere. The majority of people are so fixed in their religious beliefs that it would take a tremendous amount of evidence to the contrary to change the way they feel. This wasn't intended to be an argument, merely a discussion. Everyone thinks differently and it always surprises me how many different views you can get on a subject by having several people speak up.

While people who are born into a particular society are often more likely to accept the faith of those around them as accurate, it shouldn't be made to sound like it is completely uncommon for them to discover a new religion on their own. I know quite a few people that have decided to change religions and go with something that makes more sense to them than the one they were born into. And I know several people who have grown up Christian only to decide for themselves that they do not believe that God exists. While Atheists may not believe in God or gods, they still have faith. They simply choose to place their faith in the idea that there is no higher power.
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