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Necromis
Lifeless on my Boat


Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 767
Location: USA

PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mellymoo wrote:
Necromis wrote:
mellymoo, I don't think *they* messed up. The right to bare arms is to keep tyrants from taking over and ruling the country. After all if the colonists did not have that right we would still be under British rule here. You can prohibit guns from day one. You still won't change one thing. Criminals will ALWAYS have them. So you only harm the honest person who wants to protect themselves. Also back when the country was founded you NEEDED a gun. For food and protection against wild animals as well as hostil forces.


so - other countries which have stricter gun control laws......they're just as bad for school/mall/street killings as the USA is? Didn't other countries need guns for food etc etc in the beginning? I'm sure they must have, so where did the USA go so wrong, when the rest of "us" seem to have got it right for the most part?

I agree with you on the "bing ruled by the British" thing though - I don't want that for us any longer either, but i'm not going to get me a gun and start shooting all the English! (believe it or not, there are a few of them i kinda like! lol )


If you check the crime rates for those places I guarntee you will find more crimes than places where there is no gun control. I will be the first to agree that there is always the problem of someone who is disturbed having access to a gun as well. However, that does not out weight the number of lives that are actually saved by people having guns. Perfect example would have been in Virginia Tech here in the US. If any of the teachers had been registered for a concealed weapons permit and had been carrying a hand gun at the time of this shooting the individual could have been disabled ealier and lives could have been saved. The US makes more news because by far there is more people within the US compaired to other countries. It would take 3-4 European countries to have the same amount of land and populace. I bet if you look at 3-4 countries out there and add up the number of the same type of incidents you will see an equal number of them happening. That is why the US has more than one small country. If you are bigger with more people you will have more events. I have actually lookd up the stats percentages and the US actually has less crime per person than other countries. I posted about this earlier, but I have not re-looked up this data to provide it again here.
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coralvalley
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Joined: 17 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's actually very sad to see that the world has come to that. I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would honestly believe that taking out a gun and shooting up a bunch of innocent people would be something that would somehow be beneficial to anything or any cause that they are trying to support. I can understand people getting angry and frustrated and wanting to find ways to vent that frustration, but clearly that frustration in itself needs to be channeled within another outlet. Doing something like that is just a sad, pathetic way of lashing out and I can never understand why hurting anyone would be a good thing. I wish that people would just take the time to look beyond whatever situation they are experiencing or rather whatever misguided notion is clouding their thoughts and experiences in the moment in time and realize that simply lashing out in a negative, hurtful fashion is never the answer. Even if someone was bored and looking for something to do, violence is never an answer. There are much more positive outlets to expressing your anger and frustrations without putting someone in harm's way. Stories like these very seldom surprise me anymore, but they are poignant because it is just another example of how far society is coming in losing touch with what is really important in this world.
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mellymoo
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Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Posts: 554
Location: Scotland

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Necromis wrote:
mellymoo wrote:
Necromis wrote:
mellymoo, I don't think *they* messed up. The right to bare arms is to keep tyrants from taking over and ruling the country. After all if the colonists did not have that right we would still be under British rule here. You can prohibit guns from day one. You still won't change one thing. Criminals will ALWAYS have them. So you only harm the honest person who wants to protect themselves. Also back when the country was founded you NEEDED a gun. For food and protection against wild animals as well as hostil forces.


so - other countries which have stricter gun control laws......they're just as bad for school/mall/street killings as the USA is? Didn't other countries need guns for food etc etc in the beginning? I'm sure they must have, so where did the USA go so wrong, when the rest of "us" seem to have got it right for the most part?

I agree with you on the "bing ruled by the British" thing though - I don't want that for us any longer either, but i'm not going to get me a gun and start shooting all the English! (believe it or not, there are a few of them i kinda like! lol )


If you check the crime rates for those places I guarntee you will find more crimes than places where there is no gun control. I will be the first to agree that there is always the problem of someone who is disturbed having access to a gun as well. However, that does not out weight the number of lives that are actually saved by people having guns. Perfect example would have been in Virginia Tech here in the US. If any of the teachers had been registered for a concealed weapons permit and had been carrying a hand gun at the time of this shooting the individual could have been disabled ealier and lives could have been saved. The US makes more news because by far there is more people within the US compaired to other countries. It would take 3-4 European countries to have the same amount of land and populace. I bet if you look at 3-4 countries out there and add up the number of the same type of incidents you will see an equal number of them happening. That is why the US has more than one small country. If you are bigger with more people you will have more events. I have actually lookd up the stats percentages and the US actually has less crime per person than other countries. I posted about this earlier, but I have not re-looked up this data to provide it again here.



I agree to a point - well that is to say, i can't disagree with you on your statement that 4 european countries will have higher crime rates than the US, because i don't know the figures. But at the end of the day, we're talking gun crime, school/mall/street mass murder. I can almost GUARANTEE if you look at those figures for the USA against say UK + France + Spain + Portugal, the USA's stats will be higher. If this happens over here, we hear about it. There was ONE in Sweden last month - others can correct me if i'm wrong, but i've not heard of others this year.
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Necromis
Lifeless on my Boat


Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 767
Location: USA

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you would hear about your country's, but not the others, on a regular basis. Unless of a sensational event. Sorta like news in the US only goes national when it is a big event. Otherwise stays in that state or next states over. However, I would have to say that if you took 4 countries that were close in total population to the US and then just looked at gun crime, you would still see equal percentages. There is one small thing about europe compared to the US that does make some differences. I know there is more control on TV violence, and more openness on nudity and sexuality there. This does make some difference in peoples actions to a degree.
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younggooner07
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Joined: 12 Dec 2007
Posts: 27


PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is why i am glad to be british, yes we may have the chaviest population in the world but at least we are not obsessed by guns. I would never want to have to make a living over there, especailly not owning a newsagent or any shop for that matter.

I do have to feel sorry for anyone who knew the poor people shot though Crying or Very sad
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Xtreme $niper
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Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Posts: 1452
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Necromis wrote:
The one thing anti-gun people don't seem to get is if you outlaw guns only outlaws will have guns. If someone in the mall had a concealed weapons permit and was carrying a gun they potentially could have stopped the loss of life from being so high. It is a prove fact that in places where guns have been outlawed that violent crimes increase rather than decrease. Look at Washington DC for a perfect example of this. When the imposed gun control the crime rate went up by 300%. Criminals are not stupid. They don't want to be shot. If they think there is a gun in a home they go to another. When you remove that fear they can go into any home without worry of being shot.


While I agree that this theory is correct, it doesn't mean that it should be accepted as right. The only reason why we have gotten into this situation in the first place is because at some point down the line, guns were made legal. If guns were never made legal, the amount of people who actually owned guns would be significantly close to zero and the efforts of catching those who do own them would be somewhat tolerable. But now that guns have been legal for some time now, it's impossible to reverse the effects. By saying that everyone needs a gun to protect themselves you are effectively admitting that the world is forever doomed to live in fear of some psychopath who wants to shoot up people. That's just unfortunate.

In Canada, we were fine up until just 3 years ago where gun crime rates skyrocketed. My belief is that the only reason why this happened, and the reason why guns are so hard to get off the streets now is simply because guns are so easily accessible if you just drive south of the border and buy one from your local Wal-Mart. There is no way you can get a gun easily here unless you go to the States to get it. I don't think it is very unfair to put the blame on the American system, simply because if guns were banned in USA and in Canada from the get-go, it would be even more difficult for criminals to get their hands on guns since they would have to go to much farther lengths to get one. Of course, that doesn't mean they can't just reach into the kitchen drawer and pull out a knife, but a knife isn't a gun.

Regardless, my logic only applies to debates like this. It's much too late for the real world to adopt these ideas at this stage.
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Necromis
Lifeless on my Boat


Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 767
Location: USA

PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Xtreme, you have got to be kidding. The US has nothing to do with Canada's gun crime. Period. Secondly, guns were legal in EVERY country back when they first came out. So that idea of making them banned from the get go is moot. Unless you think people should have been put in jail back in the 1500-1700 for hunting food, or fighting of bandits. I am not saying that EVERYONE needs a gun. However, simply that when NO ONE has a gun criminals are braver since they are safe from harm. This is a big difference. Also last time I checked non-US citizens cannot buy firearms in the US. No ability to do a background check as is currently required.
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Scar
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Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Posts: 6156
Location: Chuck Norris's nightmares.

PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not a gun problem. I could probably go out and get a gun right now some way some how, maybe even legally, I don't know, but you can also do this elsewhere.

It happens in the USA, Happens in Canada, happens in the UK. Happens everywhere. It's not a isolated incident in the world that only happens in the USA.

There are depressed people all over the world. It's just when it happens in the USA its all over the media throughout the world, but if something like this happened elsewhere it probably wouldn't get much attention. It's said, but its true. I guess its the media with the sensationalism or something. I don't know.

if the dang health care industry in the USA wasn't all about making money then alot of these people would be able to get real help. I know that if you're crazy you can get put into a hospital and locked up, but who wants that? Also you can get mental help, but its only limited and you have to take all the actions yourself. If you're so far into the mental crazy thing then you aren't going to care enough to force yourself to get help because you're already feeling worthless enough anyways. I don't know.

But i think maybe the cost of all this is the only difference in the USA. Maybe not, i don't know if you have to pay for that sort of thing elsewhere.

I can maybe understand the killing yourself part, but why kill others with you? Is it because you're too scared to do it alone and you know after you kill others you'll have to kill yourself or something? I don't understand that at all. I think anyone who takes someone else's life is a pathetic worthless loser that doesn't deserved to be remembered at all. Should never make that choice for anyone else.

But i do wonder whats going on in the world today that is causing this? Maybe its been around forever though. I don't think video games nor movies could trigger anyone to do anything. I used to play mario bros all the time and i've never wanted to crush bricks with my skull ha. Maybe something else. But i think it's been around for ever because this type of stuff has always been happening in one way or another. It's sad. Human nature kinda sucks.

Sometimes i wish that i could go back into time when i was a little kid and hadn't yet realized how the world really was.
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spock
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Joined: 23 Mar 2005
Posts: 2917
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scar wrote:
It's not a gun problem. I could probably go out and get a gun right now some way some how, maybe even legally, I don't know, but you can also do this elsewhere.

It happens in the USA, Happens in Canada, happens in the UK. Happens everywhere. It's not a isolated incident in the world that only happens in the USA.

Well, but you have to admit it's a lot easier to get access to guns in the USA, since weapons are legal.

For example here in Holland it's harder.

However, I do think that nowadays in every country it just gets easier to get guns in every country. (There are still differences between countries)

Actually shooting accidents don't happen in Holland a lot, however, this year there have been quite a few stabbing accidents in schools. (And I think that can be explained by the fact it's harder to get a gun)

Still, that's quite a few shocking facts.

Scar wrote:
It's just when it happens in the USA its all over the media throughout the world, but if something like this happened elsewhere it probably wouldn't get much attention.

Well, actually in the USA there's almost nothing foreign in the news, it's all news out of the USA. And that's a big difference by the way, in European news on televisions there's a lot more foreign news.

So people in the European union see this happing in our countries themselves, but also in the USA, while people in the USA basically think such accidents only happen in the USA, but they happen here two.

I believe there were like 2 shooting accidents on German schools in one week or something. (quite recently)

Because of the easier availability of guns and the size of the country too incidents like this will probably happen in the USA a lot more though. However, it's not something that seems to be an isolated problem in the USA.

Scar wrote:
I can maybe understand the killing yourself part, but why kill others with you?

It seems most people who do such things were kinda social outcasts, and basically I guess their lives were made even more miserable by other people. So I not sure about this since I'm not a psychologist, but I guess it's kinda revenge for what the victims did to the offender (assumable the offender basically kinda made it worse in their heads)

Like I said, I'm not sure, but that seems to be what it is. Like the guy at Virginia Tech, the media reported quite a few strange facts about him, and the videos he posted on youtube himself seemed to be quite full of hate to other people for what they did to him.

Scar wrote:
But i do wonder whats going on in the world today that is causing this? Maybe its been around forever though. I don't think video games nor movies could trigger anyone to do anything.

Like I said, guess it's the higher availability of weapons and a change of society (It seems more people are lonely and isolated, which could trigger strange behavior) that cause this. Again, not sure though.
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Xtreme $niper
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Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Posts: 1452
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Necromis wrote:
Xtreme, you have got to be kidding. The US has nothing to do with Canada's gun crime. Period. Secondly, guns were legal in EVERY country back when they first came out. So that idea of making them banned from the get go is moot. Unless you think people should have been put in jail back in the 1500-1700 for hunting food, or fighting of bandits. I am not saying that EVERYONE needs a gun. However, simply that when NO ONE has a gun criminals are braver since they are safe from harm. This is a big difference. Also last time I checked non-US citizens cannot buy firearms in the US. No ability to do a background check as is currently required.


You would be ignorant to honestly tell me that the US has nothing to do with gun crime in Canada. Considering at least three quarts of our population resides within a 1-2 hour drive to the border, and an increasing amount of reports indicating that tons of illegal weapons are being smuggled in from the border, I don't think it's unfair to say that the US plays some role, big or not.

The fact that people have guns in Canada just means they got them from some other country anyway, and what's the closest and easiest source of guns? Well that's obvious.

Regardless, my point about banning guns from the get go was obviously a moot point, but it was just meant as another perspective than the reality that we live in (the one with guns).
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Necromis
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Joined: 11 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Xtreme, it is a foolish point. And I say that with no disrespect. Your argument is like saying that because McDonalds sells fast food I am fat. Your countries gun crime problems are due to criminals who elect to commit them and get gund illegally. Even if guns were banned from the start that would not change anything. Guns would have still been created for police and military. This in turn would mean that some would be stolen, or syphoned off into a black market, and you would end up with the same problem in most gun banned places. High amounts of gun/violent crime, and crime rates being much higher because people don't have the ability to protect themselves.
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LP-SolidRaven
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If they wouldn't sell the guns in the first place than there would be no need for people to have one to "protect" themselves. Almost nobody here has a gun (except a few people that go hunting) and there is almost no violence. So your whole "gun for security" argument is rather crappy.
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Necromis
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Joined: 11 Apr 2005
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Location: USA

PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SR where is here?
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kenoodo
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gun is for killing. No other excuse.
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Necromis
Lifeless on my Boat


Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 767
Location: USA

PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kenoodo wrote:
Gun is for killing. No other excuse.


Kenoodo, not true. A gun is a tool that is only as good or bad as the person using it. If you limit a tool to just one use then you could make almost any object into a bad thing.

A Knife is for Killing. Is as honest as your statement. However, with a knife I can prepare a wonderful meal. Safe a person's life by performing surgery....etc.

Guns are used for more than just killing. They have been used to prove skill in target practice. To provide food in the wilderness. To save a life of a person being attacked. They have also been used in most wars that have brought about freedom and democracy. Though on the opposite side they have also been used in wars for power and evil.

Again a gun is a tool. An honest person can use it for good, and a bad person can use it for evil.
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