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wellingtonboots
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 Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 5:37 am Post subject: Satan, Lucifer and the AntiChrist |
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I have recently been doing some research on Roman Catholism and while reading up about it, I came across several names for the Devil as described in the bible. My religious education did not include the Devil or Satan or Lucifer or whatever you wish to call it so, I'm fairly confused.
Apparently in the old testament Satan is mentioned as ha-satan who was the accuser of Job but from what I have read, it seems that ha-satan played the role of a procecuting attorney for God. Thus this ha-satan could not the Devil of Christianity who hates all mankind and opposes God.
This a quote from Wiki about Satan
| Quote: | "Such a view is found, however, in the prologue to the Book of Job, where Satan appears, together with other celestial beings or "sons of God," before the Deity, replying to the inquiry of God as to whence he had come, with the words: "From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."[5] Both question and answer, as well as the dialogue which follows, characterize Satan as that member of the divine council who watches over human activity, but with the evil purpose of searching out men's sins and appearing as their accuser. He is, therefore, the celestial prosecutor, lawyer who sees only iniquity; for he persists in his evil opinion of Job even after the man of Uz has passed successfully through his first trial by surrendering to the will of God, whereupon Satan demands another test through physical suffering.[6]
"Yet it is also evident from the prologue that Satan has no power of independent action, but requires the permission of God, which he may not transgress. He cannot be regarded, therefore, as an opponent of the Deity; and the doctrine of monotheism is disturbed by his existence no more than by the presence of other beings before the face of God. This view is also retained in Zech. 3:1-2, where Satan is described as the adversary of the high priest Joshua, and of the people of God whose representative the hierarch is; and he there opposes the "angel of the Lord" who bids him be silent in the name of God.
"In both of these passages Satan is a mere accuser who acts only according to the permission of the Deity; but in I Chron. 21:1 he appears as one who is able to provoke David to destroy Israel. The Chronicler (third century B.C.) regards Satan as an independent agent, a view which is the more striking since the source whence he drew his account[7] speaks of God Himself as the one who moved David against the children of Israel. Since the older conception refers all events, whether good or bad, to God alone,[8] it is possible that the Chronicler, and perhaps even Zechariah, were influenced by Zoroastrianism, even though in the case of the prophet Jewish monism strongly opposed Iranian dualism.[9] An immediate influence of the Babylonian concept of the "accuser, persecutor, and oppressor"[10] is impossible, since traces of such an influence, if it had existed, would have appeared in the earlier portions of the Bible."[11]
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However Lucifer is commonly believed to be a fallen angle in Christianity. He spoke out against Adam and Eve and God banished him and other celestial beings from heaven so he was the fallen angle. If Lucifer (which means morning star in latin) was a fallen angle does he oppose God out of vengence? What if Lucifer was right about Adam and Eve, God hardly seems like a particularly just figure, banishing an angle simply because he didn't like what Lucifer had pointed out.
The Old testament doesn't recount the rise and fall of Lucifer at all so some Christians believe that the origin of evil (the devil) is unexplained in the scriptures.
Other Christian follow tradition and link Lucifer with Satan and the Devil.
So where does the Anti-christ come into all this? Is it the physical embodiment of the devil which will come to earth to herald the apocalypse? Or is it simply refering to groups of people who do not believe in Christ at the day of Judgement?
If someone could explain this whole muddle to me I would be very grateful. I have an essay waiting to be written and I think it will have to be a very short one if I remain confused.
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dylan2xs
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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Well for me lucifer is a concept dreamt up by the catholic church to scare people into being civilized members of society because people believe in alot of things without ANY evidence But personally I choose not do to that.
[img:4b68d56d3d]http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa234/ovidieramirez/lol/devilslap.gif[/img:4b68d56d3d] |
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Xtreme
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:05 am Post subject: |
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The Old Testament contains literary themes that attempt to indicate to the reader that God is ultimate, supreme, and transcendent.
Therefore, the devil is often seen as subordinate to God and ultimately unable to do anything without God's allowance.
This is true - all that happens is ALLOWED to happen by God. That doesn't that he caused it intentionally to happen or that He actually wants it to happen. Just like us, the angels have free will. Satan can choose to defy God, but the Old Testament stresses that he can only do what God allows him to. This is a theme, as I said before, of God's power and authority over all existence, even the greatest force of evil, deception, and darkness.
So yes, lucifer=satan=devil. Sometimes you may see the word "devil" used to refer also to lesser - traditionally assumed subordinate - demonic spiritual beings rather than satan himself
The devil of the Old Testament is the same of the new: the serpent of the Creation Story is the same that Mary crushes in the book of Revelations, and it is the same that tempts Christ in the desert and on the night of His betrayal.
Make no mistake that he is far beyond our ability to imagine in cunning, intelligence, and evil, but remember - as stressed by the Old Testament and reaffirmed in Christ's birth, life, death, and resurrection - that God is supreme over all Creation, physical and spiritual, and that all the stars and universe and all the angels and even satan himself are even less than dust next to God.
[POST EDIT]:
Don't go to Wikipedia for theology - or for anything of any level of importance. Just. Don't... There's a reason your professors don't let you use it as a source, trust me. It's good for a quick tidbit of information about something you're clueless about, but that's just about it.
Last edited by Xtreme on Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:11 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Xtreme
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 12:05 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Oops, double post. |
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SE13
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 10:39 am Post subject: |
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| Xtreme wrote: | | Don't go to Wikipedia for theology - or for anything of any level of importance. Just. Don't... There's a reason your professors don't let you use it as a source, trust me. It's good for a quick tidbit of information about something you're clueless about, but that's just about it. |
Presumably it actually proves how wrong The Bible is from start to finish then. One must hide the realities of fact?
The reason your professors will not allow you to source it as a fact of knowledge is that it is exactly that. A fountain of knowledge, and generally factual, unlike the scripts you read in front of you, purposefully hinting at specific ideas and theories brainwashing you into actually believing that the fairy tale is true.
Each and every person is entitled to believe in whatever or whoever they believe in, and fair play to them. Personally I can think of better things to do on a Sunday morning other than sing to an East facing wall, and lie about how The Bible is the b-all and end-all of life. Try actually reading it, and laugh at how it compares with reality!
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Xtreme
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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No offense, SE13, but you appear to enjoy talking about things only mildly connected to the actual content and intent of my posts.
| Quote: | | The reason your professors will not allow you to source it as a fact of knowledge is that it is exactly that. A fountain of knowledge, and generally factual, unlike the scripts you read in front of you, purposefully hinting at specific ideas and theories brainwashing you into actually believing that the fairy tale is true. |
Do you honestly think that professors are "afraid" of the power of Wikipedia? It this some sort of education conspiracy theory? Because that's what it looks like.
What, after all, do you think that educators have to gain by "brainwashing" us lowly, fickle students?
| Quote: | | Each and every person is entitled to believe in whatever or whoever they believe in, and fair play to them. Personally I can think of better things to do on a Sunday morning other than sing to an East facing wall, and lie about how The Bible is the b-all and end-all of life. Try actually reading it, and laugh at how it compares with reality! |
Of course everyone is entitled to believe in whatever they want. That doesn't mean they're correct, though.
Also, no one hear has implied or stated that the Bible is the "the b-all and end-all of life," because it simply isn't. That "point" needs no time or attention, I think, because it's closer to a rant than anything else. |
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wellingtonboots
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks everyone for helping me with this. I must say that Xtreme clarified it up very well.
Personally, I kind of agree with SE13, I love wiki because its just so convinient but unfortuately my teachers are that step ahead of me. In hte very beginning, when they were still fairly clueless about the whole internet thing, you could get away with just remodifying the wording copied from wiki but then some nasty snitch must have told them about this wonderful resource not matter how inaccurate it might be. Now when they give out an assignment, they will go on wiki and read up on all the stuff, silently and sneakily note down all the wrong facts on the pages. If anyone comes in with an essay that has the same mistakes, woe betide them.
However that said it is awfully hard to find accurate information on the internet about theology because there are so many view points from different sects and branches of christianity and I get so confused just reading them. Of course most of them are just wiki copied out without the links, which sucks.
I personally feel that the Bible is probably best read through metaphorical glasses. Some things are just not meant to be taken literally.
I believe that there is evil, it is in everyone of us and perhaps there is a focus of this evil but more likely the devil is that little voice inside that us that will prompt us to ignore our conscience and give into your evil desires. Of course that doesn't mean the voice doesn't belong to the Satan/Devil/Lucifer who is hoping to seduce us all.
I don't see how the modern beliefs that we hold should always come into conflict, of course the devil may not be a hoofed goatman but that doesn't mean he isn't there, neither does it mean the advice in the bible about how to avoid being seduced by him is irrelevant to daily life.
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voltare
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