Subcultures and Countercultures: My point of view

[skrelk]

Punk, skater, what are these? They are defined by all of us, and there is no one correct explanation of what they are. The only thing that we can say for sure about these is that they are "subcultures". Cultures that occur outside of mainstream society. Here's my take on it.

Punk: I'm a punk. Punk is a subculture that, at the moment is divided into many factions. You've got the fake punks, who don't understand any of the philosophies. Every faction is fighting against these. Then you have the corporate punks, who are more or less allied with the fake ones. The corporate punks what to be allied with various industries. Then you have the political punks, which is the faction I think I belong to. The political punks are strongly anti-fascist, and support freedom. Then you have general punk, which is strongly individualist and fighting the corporate and fake punks.

However, punk is constantly changing and more or less rebuilding after it's mysterious shrinking around 2001.

Skater: Except for the skater punks, who are just punks with skateboards, skater is a mess of corporation loving idiots who are often responsible for the commercialization of almost everything. They are fairly new, as for years skateboarding and punk were connected, until about 2001. Skater appears to have 3 factions. The corporation lovers. The group I would describe as free skaters. This faction has a strong belief in freedom, and is usually street skating. And then the punk skaters, which are punks with skateboards.

If this gets a good result, I'll maybe add some more. I find subcultures fascinating.
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[Xtreme]

Er. I'm curious as to what, precisely, you think defines "punk" in the first place. Because I'm not entirely sure that a "culture" or subculture (or what have you) should be defined by... skateboards?

I mean, maybe it's a valid hobby, but defining your beliefs, actions, and "subculture" on skateboarding?

Seems saturated with teenage angst and a generally confused world-view.

[skrelk]

Er, is responding with an age-based/sanity questioning dismissal the best way to say you disagree?
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[Xtreme]

Sorry if I came off offensively as I did not, of course, intend to do so. However, I did intend, to some degree, to point out the apparent problems with this situation but mostly intended to find out, as I said before, what exactly you are calling "punk."

And, further, what is typical of a "punk" person and why those things are typical.

I think with a few things established on a concrete level we can begin to more accurately discuss the topic.

[skrelk]

The thing is, is that everyone will have a different opinion about the same subculture.
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[spock]

I don't really get the point of subcultures anyway, I mean it's funny a group of people share the believe they should be individualistic. I mean isn't just believing something because you belong to a group the complete opposite to individualistic?

I mean, I like skateboarding, I like punk music (and about anything from just poppunk to hardcore punk). However that doesn't mean I need to be a part of any group.

I mean, I also like other things and other music. And that's why subcultures seem kinda pointless, that's just because everybody has different views. And that's also the reason everybody thinks differently about the meaning of specific subcultures.
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[skrelk]

Well, your making a very common mistake. Nonconformism doesn't mean bring in any group whatsoever, it means leaving mainstream society. Also, the beliefs are more than just the one you mentioned. Punks believe in true freedom, in tolerance, in standing up for what you believe...
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[linuxdoctor]

This thread is hilarious. I'm surprised that Xtreme was so easily cowed by shrelk when he was accused of ageism. Psuedo-socialist 'poltical' correctness in action. Xtreme should have retorted, "Don't confuse my experience as prejudice or your lack of it as wisdom."

Shrelk betrays his ignorance and arrogance in his use of words: 'subculture', 'anti-fascist', 'nonconformism' and 'freedom.' What is a subculture and does 'punk' and 'skater' qualify as such? These questions are not answered but are assumed to be true. What about 'nonconformism?' Is that a part of the 'punk' supposed subculture?

What of the word 'subculture' itself? Taken at its face, the word combines 'sub', meaning below, beneath, under, even inferior and 'culture' which meaning I will assume everybody knows. A subculture, then, is a part of a main culture but some subset of it. Nonconformism, which according to Shrelk means "leaving mainstream society" or culture, would seem to exclude any form of nonconformist philosophy or lifestyle as a subculture at all. If 'punk' is a form of nonconformity then it cannot be a subculture at all.

Indeed, my experience of self-proclaimed non-conformists, and Shrelk seems to be saying that 'punk' is non-conformist, is that they are not true non-conformists at all but merely conforming to something else, usually the tyranny of peer pressure, one of the curses of inexperience and young age. This begs the question, if 'punk' is a subculture, but is not a part of "mainstream society," then of what culture is 'punk' a part of?

Shrelk also used the word 'antifascist.' My experience of self proclaimed antifascists is that they do not know what fascism really is in the first place. Most confuse it with neo-Nazism, a false form of National Socialism, but fascism and Nazism have very little in common. This is not the place to discuss the differences between fascism and Nazism except to say that they are two radically different systems that really has only point in common, that being, they are both anti-democratic.

Fascism was best described by the person who invented the system and coined the word, Benito Mussolini, as "state corporatism." Anyone who says that government should be run like a business is a fascist. At it's heart is the corporatist philosophy, that is, the philosophy of Big Business. Those who support big business by working for them, buying their products or supporting their continued existence are corporatists and, by extension, fascists.

Anti-fascists I know all buy brand-name clothes and therefore are really crypto-fascists. Are you a crypto-fascist? Let's see? Do you buy brand name clothes? Do you drive a car and fill it with gas? Do you hang out in a shopping mall? Do you buy clothes, music, books and electronics in chain stores? Do you use Microsoft Windows instead of GNU/Linux or some other Free Software? If you answered 'yes' to any of these questions, then you too are a fascist or a collaborator. All of these things are made, sold and supported by Corporatist entities many of whom, like Microsoft, are criminal organisations also.

I get a laugh when so-called anti-fascist radicals are making up their fliers using Microsoft Word or giving presentations using Powerpoint. They are the lot brain-dead as far as I'm concerned.

And what about freedom? My experience is that those who tout the word 'freedom' most know the least about it. For many of them, freedom means being able to do whatever one likes, when one likes without the encumbrances of responsibility so long as nobody gets hurt. All one needs do is reflect only a little on this definition to realise that, if it were true, people would quickly end up with no freedom at all. The ancients, like Plato and Socrates, recognised this as a form a tyranny and not really freedom at all yet modern day proponents of "true freedom" blindly advocate its acceptance.

It is an unfortunate fact that experience takes time and wisdom does come with age. This is not always the case since I personally know some very stupid old people and a number of very wise young people, but that is not the norm and something that Shrelk will just have to live with. If Shrek really is interested in wisdom rather than conforming to his supposed subculture he'll need to first strike out on his own and seek it for himself and that usually means seeking out those who have gone before him. He will need to study the wisdom of the ancients like Plato and Socrates, great eastern philosophers like Confucius and the Buddha or mystics like St. John of Cross and great modern philosophers like Bertrand Russel. He will never find it by being a punk.
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Misanthrope: someone who realizes that humans really are as stupid as they appear.

If you think I'm 'politically' incorrect you have the wrong politics.

[skrelk]

Ah, how I hate responding to mega-posts. My response will be in red.

[linuxdoctor]

You need to do some radical editing on your response. It's just a mess as it stands. You got the 'quotes' and 'red' mostly in the wrong place. .

Here's something you said of some very little note.

[skrelk]

I assure you, you can read it. Therefore, you have admitted your inability to produce any kind of counter argument, and so choose to attack grammar, BBCode us, the person, and semantics.

Step up, and respond to me.
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[linuxdoctor]

[skrelk]

You edited your post after I told you to respond to me. It appears your hoping no one will notice you edited the post, and so will believe I ignored you responses. That will not be happening.

And now, for my responses.

[linuxdoctor]

[skrelk]

Is it just me or are we going in circles?
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