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Myst
Lifeless Person
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 1008
Location: Somewhere else
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 Posted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| linuxdoctor wrote: | | You are very fortunate. Several IT guys I know who work for a couple of large companies (well one has been laid off thanks to the recession) report they are constantly having to reformat and reinstall Vista onto the machines they are required to maintain. |
I'm hoping not to be drawn into this argument too much (given that it has been done to death), but the fact that they're part of a large IT company, they'll have to deal with hundreds, if not thousands of machines. The fact that they are "constantly" having to reformat and reinstall Vista doesn't really mean much, given that it'll still only be a small percentage of the machines they're dealing with 
And yeah... *bashes Microsoft/Windows*
..it seems like the thing to do around here (despite the fact that I have had more problems with Linux Distros than Windows). |
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The Grinch
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Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Posts: 6385
Location: Chuck Norris's nightmares.
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:42 am Post subject: |
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| Desbrina wrote: | | linuxdoctor wrote: |
Yes, I noticed this oxymoron by the original poster too. Secure in a computer system to me means, among other things, that it runs for long periods of time without crashing or corrupting its data. No Windows system, including Vista, has a reputation for longevity in this regard. I still hear people complain that they have to reformat their hard drives every couple of months because Vista keeps crashing on him and destroying the file system. Definitely not secure. |
I've been using Vista for about a year now, and not once have i had to format my PC because of a Vista crash
| linuxdoctor wrote: | | We all know about the viruses, worms and trojans that plague all Windows systems and Vista's bad design (like all Microsoft software) makes it all too easy to compromise the system. Another reason that Vista is not secure. |
Same as above, not once have i had any trouble with viruses, worms or Trojans in the time ive been using vista. In fact, i've had more trouble with XP than i have with vista
| linuxdoctor wrote: | | If Windows and other Microsoft software were open source such problems would be very much less likely to happen as there would be tens of thousands of computer amateurs and experts pouring over the code every day looking for just such weaknesses. Linux has benefited from such scrutiny for over fifteen years now and it has the reputation of being among the most secure Operating Systems in use today. |
That may be so, but it could be down to more people use windows therefore windows is targeted more. Some people can't get on with linux, i'm one of those. We have to use it in Uni and some of us don't like it. Compared to Linux, windows is simpler |
+1 
Lost cause though really. I hear a echo |
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LP-SolidRaven
Evil Belgian Waffle
Joined: 06 Jun 2004
Posts: 8144
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| mcwkm wrote: | | Windows may not be very secure but propriety software doesn't want hobbyists writing patches that they will be supporting for their software. |
You are forgetting a lot of the hobbyists you are talking about work for companies like IBM, Sun, etc.
| Quote: | | Windows is just exploited because of it's market share. This doesn't mean linux/unix systems are going to have more bugs. It means they won't be exploited as much. |
Then they'd also aim for macs and certainly for linux. Lets see:
Get a couple of small home computers under control with slow connections.
vs.
Get several servers with 1gbit connections under control
What is the most effective tool to do malicious things.
| Quote: | | I haven't run vista ever but really I can run an OEM install of windows XP for 2 years without having a single problem. Sure, it will be slightly slower but 90% of virus's are going to on your system because your an idiot. |
Actually you are quite mistaken, there have been so much viruses that required no user interaction to do their thing. The most known one is W32.Blaster (I mean, who didn't love how it crashed the RPC service and made your computer reboot).
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mcwkm
Lifeless Person
Joined: 30 Mar 2005
Posts: 748
Location: ct
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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Open Source works great but for a business who monopolizes an industry by being proprietary, they can't simply just switch because that would lose them money. It may be better for the actual software to be open source but in a capitalist market where making money is the only thing investors care about the switch would be horrible.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Windows is just exploited because of it's market share. This doesn't mean linux/unix systems are going to have more bugs. It means they won't be exploited as much. |
Then they'd also aim for macs and certainly for linux. Lets see:
Get a couple of small home computers under control with slow connections.
vs.
Get several servers with 1gbit connections under control
What is the most effective tool to do malicious things.
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That malware is really targeted at servers which may be the same core and would infect a desktop. The malicious people aiming for linux/unix are aiming for servers so the desktop users aren't targeted as often. Sights for windows software is aimed at the home user which home users don't have someone maintaining their computers. Any company will have someone in charge of keeping their server running correctly.
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| Quote: | | I haven't run vista ever but really I can run an OEM install of windows XP for 2 years without having a single problem. Sure, it will be slightly slower but 90% of virus's are going to on your system because your an idiot. |
Actually you are quite mistaken, there have been so much viruses that required no user interaction to do their thing. The most known one is W32.Blaster (I mean, who didn't love how it crashed the RPC service and made your computer reboot). |
Your right but I still believe that a lot of people that end up with viruses just did something stupid and probably deserved whatever happened to them for being an idiot. |
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linuxdoctor
Infallible Persona
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 1530
Location: Ottawa, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| mckwm wrote: | | Open Source works great but for a business who monopolizes an industry by being proprietary, they can't simply just switch because that would lose them money. |
Why? Open Source only means that the source code is available. It doesn't mean the software is provided at no charge. People would still pay money for the software. The real difference is that it would open up a portion of the customer base who could contribute bug fixes and enhancements that the the software provider could later incorporate into their main software and reduce their maintenance and development costs at the same time.
| mckwm wrote: | It may be better for the actual software to be open source but in a capitalist market where making money is the only thing investors care about the switch would be horrible.
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Look around you. Capitalism is crashing all around you right now. It's just too bad that world governments are going to prop it up rather than let it crash and burn.
In any case, the switch to a truly open market would not be horrible for consumers and producers; just for layabout capitalists who expect to make money for nothing.
_________________
Misanthrope: someone who realizes that humans really are as stupid as they appear.
If you think I'm 'politically' incorrect you have the wrong politics.
Big business is a disease we will need to cure before we will ever achieve real prosperity. |
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mcwkm
Lifeless Person
Joined: 30 Mar 2005
Posts: 748
Location: ct
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| Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:36 am Post subject: |
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| linuxdoctor wrote: | | mckwm wrote: | | Open Source works great but for a business who monopolizes an industry by being proprietary, they can't simply just switch because that would lose them money. |
Why? Open Source only means that the source code is available. It doesn't mean the software is provided at no charge. People would still pay money for the software. The real difference is that it would open up a portion of the customer base who could contribute bug fixes and enhancements that the the software provider could later incorporate into their main software and reduce their maintenance and development costs at the same time. |
When i think of open source, I think of the code being available to everyone at no cost but I guess the source code could be available to anyone who purchases the software but then it really isn't open source.
If the source code is available to anyone for free. What would be stopping them from compiling it themselves?
| linuxdoctor wrote: |
| mckwm wrote: | It may be better for the actual software to be open source but in a capitalist market where making money is the only thing investors care about the switch would be horrible.
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Look around you. Capitalism is crashing all around you right now. It's just too bad that world governments are going to prop it up rather than let it crash and burn.
In any case, the switch to a truly open market would not be horrible for consumers and producers; just for layabout capitalists who expect to make money for nothing. |
[/quote]
Communism collapsed too. Democracy has crashed before. That doesn't mean it is the problem.
An open market would be great but do you really think it would happen? And then what would be there to stop monopolies from forming even easier. Zero government interaction is not the way to go, it will simply bring about more problems that will only benefit the rich/larger corporations.
I happen to love Marx philosophy and would love to see it work but do I actually think it would given how people act? No, I don't think people wouldn't fit into that system and that it would just cause more problems.
Any revolutionary change at this point in time is premature and to use the recent recession for evidence of capitalism not working, you should probably go look back a few years and notice how capitalism created one of best economies. |
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linuxdoctor
Infallible Persona
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 1530
Location: Ottawa, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| mcwkm wrote: | | When i think of open source, I think of the code being available to everyone at no cost but I guess the source code could be available to anyone who purchases the software but then it really isn't open source. |
That is precisely open source. You are confusing open source with free software. While often the two terms are used interchangeably they aren't really the same. While all free software is open source not all open source is free.
Open source refers to the availability of the source code; that is all.
| mcwkm wrote: | If the source code is available to anyone for free. What would be stopping them from compiling it themselves?
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Nothing, and that is point. Having the source code available provides the purchaser of software with some insurance that should the software no longer be available (say, through the company no longer existing) users would continue to be able to maintain it themselves, or hire others to do so for them.
| mckwm wrote: | | Communism collapsed too. Democracy has crashed before. That doesn't mean it is the problem. |
Actually it does. Communism collapsed because it does not and cannot work. Democracy too. Both are false systems and that why they failed. Ironically, in this country, there are people who want to fix the problem of our broken democracy by proposing to make our government even more democratic. In other words, they propose a solution that will give us even more of the same.
The crisis in democracy is a crisis of leadership, that is to say, there is none. Democracies do not produce leaders, or at least they produce very few of them. Instead they produce mediocrities that are a reflection of the people they represent, and a sad bunch they are too.
| mckwm wrote: | | An open market would be great but do you really think it would happen? And then what would be there to stop monopolies from forming even easier. Zero government interaction is not the way to go, it will simply bring about more problems that will only benefit the rich/larger corporations. |
I said open market not free market. Open markets are tightly regulated to ensure that they remain open. One way that is done is through active government intervention to break up monopolies (like Microsoft) before they are able to dominate the marketplace.
| mckwm wrote: | | I happen to love Marx philosophy and would love to see it work but do I actually think it would given how people act? No, I don't think people wouldn't fit into that system and that it would just cause more problems. |
Marx's fundamental error is in his attribution of all social and economic problems to a mythical class struggle. This he defines as the perpetual conflict between the so-called exploited classes and the exploiting classes. He created a false dichotomy from which he draws incorrect conclusions that necessarily leads to a prescription to a problem that does not exist. The entirety of Marxist analysis is based on the myth of the class struggle and his solution, Communism, is inevitably bound to fail as a result.
Democracy fails for the same reason. it is based on the false idea that all people are equal, that they share a certain set of inalienable rights and are able to govern themselves. Poppycock!
| mckwm wrote: | | Any revolutionary change at this point in time is premature and to use the recent recession for evidence of capitalism not working, you should probably go look back a few years and notice how capitalism created one of best economies. |
If you look carefully, capitalist economies are in constant crisis. The only thing that keeps them going is government intervention. How many times have governments had to bail out big oil, big auto makers, big banks, and big you name it. What makes capitalism work is your tax dollars being poured into bailing out huge companies that should never have been allowed to grow to such a size in the first place. They hold their own employees hostage with the threat of layoffs and firings in order to blackmail the government for handouts.
No, it's time to kill capitalism off right now. However, Marxism is not the answer. Marxism is just another false prescription to a non-existent problem.
On the other hand, if you think Capitalism is about continuous massive government intervention on behalf of big business then I suppose it is working just fine.
_________________
Misanthrope: someone who realizes that humans really are as stupid as they appear.
If you think I'm 'politically' incorrect you have the wrong politics.
Big business is a disease we will need to cure before we will ever achieve real prosperity. |
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LP-SolidRaven
Evil Belgian Waffle
Joined: 06 Jun 2004
Posts: 8144
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| mcwkm wrote: | | Open Source works great but for a business who monopolizes an industry by being proprietary, they can't simply just switch because that would lose them money. It may be better for the actual software to be open source but in a capitalist market where making money is the only thing investors care about the switch would be horrible. |
Pure capitalism is a system that fails anyway. Always leads to an elite few staying in power due to the large amount of money they own.
| Quote: | | That malware is really targeted at servers which may be the same core and would infect a desktop. The malicious people aiming for linux/unix are aiming for servers so the desktop users aren't targeted as often. Sights for windows software is aimed at the home user which home users don't have someone maintaining their computers. Any company will have someone in charge of keeping their server running correctly. |
Windows server has exactly the same change as a windows desktop to get infected actually. Linux on the other hand is very unlikely. If you configure it the right way there is no way to cause any damage, even if you get in.
| Quote: | | Your right but I still believe that a lot of people that end up with viruses just did something stupid and probably deserved whatever happened to them for being an idiot. |
That's what you get when you let the average windows user get in front of a PC...
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mcwkm
Lifeless Person
Joined: 30 Mar 2005
Posts: 748
Location: ct
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| Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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You can criticize economic structures as much as you want but you aren't suggesting anything that will solve the problems. It's completely normal for any economy to have ups and downs but people are just stupid and make things worse.
An open market system and a free market system are the same exact thing so I don't get where you are getting that one has restrictions and the other does not. |
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LP-SolidRaven
Evil Belgian Waffle
Joined: 06 Jun 2004
Posts: 8144
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:49 am Post subject: |
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You fail to see the difference between the way the opensource community works and the way companies like microsoft work. Most of Microsoft it's income is based on a monopoly on the operating system market. On the other hand most linux distributions were written with the idea in mind to help other people. Not the developers (as in getting loads of money).
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Dilly dally, shilly shally. |
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mcwkm
Lifeless Person
Joined: 30 Mar 2005
Posts: 748
Location: ct
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:22 am Post subject: |
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| LP-SolidRaven wrote: | | You fail to see the difference between the way the opensource community works and the way companies like microsoft work. Most of Microsoft it's income is based on a monopoly on the operating system market. On the other hand most linux distributions were written with the idea in mind to help other people. Not the developers (as in getting loads of money). |
I do see how that works but I just don't see how a switch from the Microsoft business model to the Red Hat business model would actually become a reality in the next few years.
Helping people is great but if you haven't realized it yet we live in a society based around gaining financial wealth. |
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LP-SolidRaven
Evil Belgian Waffle
Joined: 06 Jun 2004
Posts: 8144
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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| mcwkm wrote: | | Helping people is great but if you haven't realized it yet we live in a society based around gaining financial wealth. |
Doesn't mean that society is right though.
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Dilly dally, shilly shally. |
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The Grinch
Lifeless Person
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Posts: 6385
Location: Chuck Norris's nightmares.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Why does a Vista topic HERE (at llp) always end up with retards complaining about being too poor to buy real programs? |
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LP-SolidRaven
Evil Belgian Waffle
Joined: 06 Jun 2004
Posts: 8144
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| The Grinch wrote: | | Why does a Vista topic HERE (at llp) always end up with retards complaining about being too poor to buy real programs? |
Sorry that we actually prefer to write our own programs so we actually know what happens.
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ClickFanatic
Est. 2005
Joined: 18 Jan 2005
Posts: 4685
Location: 37°45'18.24"N 14°59'42.9"E
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| The Grinch wrote: | | Why does a Vista topic HERE (at llp) always end up with retards complaining about being too poor to buy real programs? |
Yes, it always ends up that way... 
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If you can read this, my post is on an alternating background. |
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